Crossbow feats

[med stud]

I'm about to start a campaign pretty soon, and Im thinking of introducing some feats that would make the crossbow a stronger weapon for people who commit themselves to them. My main issues are balance issues, so the feats wont become to strong or weak. This is where I need Your help.

OK, here they go:

Sharpshooter [General]
Prerequisites: Point blank shot, Precise shot, Far shot, Weapon focus (crossbow)
Benefit: The character gains a +1 to attack bonus with crossbows, and an increased critical range (so that a normal crossbow would go from 19-20 x2 to 17-20 x2 for example).
(Designer notes: I can imagine that this feat will be powerful early on, but it will lose power when BAB will hit +6/+1, and the built in disadvantage of crossbows to be unable to use Rapid shot).

Marksman [General]
Prerequisites: Sharpshooter, Weapon specialization (crossbow)
Benefit: The character gains another +1 to attack bonus and damage, and bonuses from Point blank shot and Weapon specialization applies to all ranges.
(Designer notes: The prerequisites of this feat is made so that the user have to put much dedication to the Fighter class. With that in mind, Im not sure if this is under powered or not).

Master marksman [General]
Prerequisites: Marksman, Improved critical (crossbow)
Benefit: The character gains +1 to attack bonus, and the critical multiplier increases with one. Any hit within crit. range is automaticly confirmed.
(Designer note: Im not sure about this one at all. When comparing to fighters of equal level with Might composite longbows [+4] it doesnt look too strong, but on the other hand does the crossbow path leave the user able to focus only on Dex and almost no Str, something that along with the attack bonuses of the feat chain can give the crossbow user insanely high AB).


Well, these are the feats. I would appreciate any opinions, and Im thick skinned, so bring the flame throwers if needed

 

[Crothian]

Okay, first off why do you think crossbows need the added power?

All these feats are really too strong.

Sharpshooter: Combining Weapon focus (actually it's better since it applies to all of them) and Improved Critical (again more powerful then the normal feat since it applies to all crossbows). The fact that it stacks with these feats, makes it even worse.

Marksman: An additional +1 to hit and damage and point blank shot at all ranges with specialization at all ranges? Way too powerful. That's a total of +4 attack and +4 damage on all ranges.

Master Marksman: So, any nat roll of 15-20 is automatical x3 damage? Way too powerful.

 

[med stud]

OK, my motivation for the extra strength of crossbows is because I think the crossbow sniper should be a viable choice for a character. Considering the weakness of the crossbow compared to the bow, I think the crossbow has to be powered up. Generally I dont like powering up by Prestige Classes, and by powering up the weapon as is I would have a too powerful simple weapon. Therefore I went the feat way.

The first problem is damage output. With Rapid shot and a mighty [+4] composite longbow, a lvl 6 archer with rapid shots can get off attacks that cause a total of 3d8+12 damage.
A normal crossbow user at level 6 can match that with 1d8.
A crossbow user with Sharpshooting and Marksman can cause 1d8+4 with a good possibility for a critical, for a damage of 2d8+6. Still below the bow user. In addition, the crossbow user have to stand still to reload. What the crossbow user with gain by using my feats compared to the bow user is a good probability of hitting his target. Damage wise will he lag behind.

On Master marksman, I can agree that it turned out to powerful. Making a comparison again, we find that:
Mr mty c. longbow at lvl 9 (earliest level for Master marksman for comparison) still gets a maximum of three attacks, with a critical range of 19-20 x3 (if we assume that he has taken improved critical with his weapon).

Now the master marksman would deal 1d8+4, with a really good possibility of dealing 3d8+12 damage. This can get worse with elemental burst crossbows and the like, that's true.

So we factor in some magical weapons with the test persons. At lvl 9, the characters have a 36k equipment limit. Half of that is devoted to weapons, which will give a +3 weapon for 18k.
If the bowman then buys a +1 bow of shocking and frost, his damage output will be:
1d8+5+2d6 in three attacks, potentially 3d8+15+2d6
The crossbowman buys flaming burst, with damage output:
1d8+5+1d6, quite possible 3d8+15+1d6+2d10
With average numbers, I think they will turn out about the same. And, the crossbowman has still sunken three feats into his weapon that the bowman hasnt.

So I think that the feats may look wrong, but from my calculations I dont think that they unbalance the game. Or are my calculations off?

PS: An important factor with these feats is that I house ruled out repeating crossbow. If using repeating crossbow in your game, dont go near these feats, they will rip your game apart.

 

[Crothian]

First off your comparing a regular crossbow with a mighty bow. That's not a fair comparison. You can create a mighty version of the crossbow. It would take a stronger person to load. Crossbows, though, are weaker then bows. That's why they are simple weapons and bows are Martial.

Personally, to even them up I'd increase tyhe power of the Crossbow. A feat that allows you to puch through armor (natural or regular). A feat that increases the damage die instead of just adding damage. Possibly allow a knockdown type feat for heavy crossbows.

If you've seen Quintessential Fighter by Mongoose, they havea fighting style devoted to the Heavy Crossbow. That might also help if you like that type of thing.

 

[FoxWander]

Crossbows, though, are weaker then bows. That's why they are simple weapons and bows are Martial.

Actually crossbows can be easily made (and often were) much stronger than bows. I've seen with my own eyes, and granted this was a modern one, a crossbow fire a quarrel THROUGH an engine block! Now as I said that was a modern weapon with a steel cable for a string and firing a solid steel quarrel, but it illustrates the power that can be built into these things. This is vaguely reflected in the rules by higher damage die compared to bows. What makes them simple as oppossed to martial weapons is that they're, well, simple. To be accurate with a long bow requires lots of training and practice. To be accurate with a crossbow only requires understanding whatever contraption is used to load it and the ability to point it and pull a trigger. That's why thier invention changed the face of medieval warfare. Whereas before accurate missile fire required trained, disciplined longbow-men; after any shmoe who could point a stick with reasonable steadyness could kill knights on horseback.

Sorry for the rant, but I've always liked crossbows and always believed they were short-changed in D&D. Now as to feats in question I have to agree that they're too powerful. They either combine two feats in one (with more versatility even) or circumvent fairly core concepts- that missile weapons ONLY do ANY kind of extra damage within 30 feet, and that critical THREATS (meaning a potential rather than sure thing) must be confirmed with another successful hit to do extra damage.

Now while that's a bit much for a FEAT, those effects would be more than appropriate for a prestige class. Since you obviously intended the higher feats to only be available to fighters who specialize in crossbows, why not develop it further into a PrC.

Or if you simply want to add more 'oomph' to crossbows adopt a house rule (as I have) that allows Mighty Crossbows. But with a Mighty Crossbow you CAN use one of a higher strength than you possess, it just takes you even longer to load the thing. My rule is that for every extra point of STR damage bonus beyond what you can already do, it takes you one extra round to crank the string back and load the thing. I haven't found this imbalancing yet. They're very expensive (10% more than the equivalent Mighty Bow and I extended the table to account for 18+ STR bonuses) and at most they give my players a powerful first shot, cause you certainly can't reload them in combat. Several rounds of free AoE's keep them as an opening salvo weapon. Thieves may love them for sneak attacks, but watch your players tremble when they spy ogre guards armed with Arbelests (really frickin' huge crossbows if you didn't know) with a windlass to crank it on thier belts, meaning its beyond even an ogre's STR to load it in one round.

Anyway, that's my 2 pence.

 

[med stud]

Sorry if I sent the wrong impressions on crossbows; I think that they are too weak rules wise, not reallity wise (there must be a reason why the pope banned crossbows and not longbows, for example, and an entire rebellion against a king in Sweden was commited by peasants with crossbows against armored knights). I can see (balance wise) where the WoTC comes from on crossbows; if they would give a simple weapon too much power, the martial version would be pointless. Therefore I created the feats.

 

[bensei]

What are the advantages of a crossbow compared to a bow?

1. You can construct one that can be spanned much stronger than muscle strength. This is already taken care of.

2. You can take you time for aiming without having to hold the bow's draw. Therefore a crossbow is a much better sharpshoter-weapon (only one precise shot required...). So what is sharpshoting? Aiming long and precisely and then firing one killing shot. This is something like the rogue's sneak attack ability, or you can interpret it as a critical. So what about the following:

Sharpshooter [General]
Prerequisites: Point blank shot, Precise shot, Far shot, Weapon focus (crossbow)
Benefit: When shooting at an enemy who's dexterity bonus to AC is denied and the character has used at least a full round action for aiming, the character receives the following boni:
- The critical range increases from 30ft. to 60ft.
- The crossbow becomes a 18-20 / x3 weapon.

 

[med stud]

Thanks for the suggestions, bensei, especially the full round thing. I will use the full round thing to modify the Master marksman feat a bit:

Master marksman [General]
Prerequisites: Marksman, Improved critical (crossbow)
Benefit: The character gains +1 to attack bonus, and the critical multiplier increases with one. If the character uses the full attack action, the confirmation check on a critical threat is automaticly 20 (this will go well together with the double 20 = death rule).

PS - Your feat was well created (probably better balanced than mine) but I dont like the 60 ft limit. IMO a marksman shall be accurate at ranges greater then 20 m.

 

[Crothian]

PS - Your feat was well created (probably better balanced than mine) but I dont like the 60 ft limit. IMO a marksman shall be accurate at ranges greater then 20 m.

That's in today's world with perfectly balanced weapons made of space age steel and scopes that make it seem you're next to the target that is a mile away. However, that's not really the case in ancient times. You are limited by sight and the weapon.

 

[med stud]

A historical source I once read told about crossbows shooting at maximum 300 meters, and accuratly and deadly up to 90 meters. Granted, it was in the beginning of the 16th century and not medieval times, but it was in Sweden, which during those days were about a hundred years shorter in development then the rest of Europe.