Crt

  • Thread starter Thread starter Fenmarel
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Figures I post a reply and another is posted that I want to reply to... so pardon the double posting, please.

I am from a time when the CRT was the only ISRP (then FFRP) chat room on the entirety of wizards of the coast's site. Back before Hasbro bought WotC. Back when, if I recall corrrectly, all you had was the CRT, Live, and the main lobby, as well as the four dice playing rooms.

There was no diceless playing room. There was no poke-whatever room. There was no arena. There was no garden, no emporium, no clearing....

I think you guys get the picture.

And back then, if memory serves (and trust me, it's been years and years, and back then I was still a lowly freshman in high school!) I seem to recall there being portals in the CRT itself. That was the explanation for people coming to the tavern from other worlds. The tavern had been built on some sort of nexus or some such, and it was discovered after it was purchased by .. (good gods, was it Ginger?) that there were such portals when strange folk (ala people from other worlds) started to just "drop by".

So from someone who has been here since the original (barring the original tavern on AOL) I'd like to keep it just the way it is. I think it is fine. Has been all this time, in my opinion.

-A very old fogie.
 

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It seems that what you are getting at is that you wish the crt to be in a setting where Devils, Demons, Liches, Vampires, Ghouls, etc are not likely/seen/allowed as pcs so that the WizOs can or will stop such characters from coming online?

Uh, not me?

As much as I love zombies, I can't exactly see the thrill in playing one... O_o

"Uh, brains..." yeah, stimulating... ¬_¬

So from someone who has been here since the original (barring the original tavern on AOL) I'd like to keep it just the way it is. I think it is fine. Has been all this time, in my opinion.

I think the tavern is alright as it is right now too, but I think changes to Juxta wouldn't go awry at all!

...Not picking on you Krys, promise!!!

:: hug ::

Just I understood your posts better than some of the more convoluted ones! :embarrass

Bhryn (Not awake!)
 

Sorry, hun, didn't specify. When I wrote that post, I hadn't seen any of yours.

That bit about the question was aimed at Fen.

Wait... I thought all my posts were convulted? And you actually understood?

*drops dead from surprise*

*grins and wanders off*
 

Originally posted by Bhryn Astairre
Just I understood your posts better than some of the more convoluted ones!
Posts made by Fen and I, convoluted? Never! (Ok, maybe mine was;) )

Originally posted by Fenmarel
I think Sigil has the potential to be both good and bad. The setting itself rocks as it is on the books. Though online it would have about the same flaws as Juxta due to the fact you would have Demon Lords and Devil Princes or even liches or vampires with their ghoul servants running around left and right simply because the setting allows it and folks would have to play the most bad ass coolest thing that could go there.
Honestly, this will happen regardless of the setting, it happens as it is now, just as your other examples.

Sigil, however, would have the added advantage of being a setting designed to accomodate such things in a manner that wouldn't neglect less powerful characters as a result. Sigil's flavor is very much functional for all power levels of characters, whether by natives or by visitors from other planes of reality. It would be an excellent way to encourage more in depth characters to be created as opposed to the growing trends of late; a richly made setting can help to produce richly made characters.
Of course I'd also advise ignoring the latest WotC official texts on Sigil placing it's alignment as something that would cause it to drift from it's location atop the Spire... but that's a whole different can of worms better left to the D&D boards ;)

Sigil could handle the things that go on in the chats already, and it would give a readily available proof against these avatars and gods that keep showing up (Having a setting piece known to have slain a greater god for infringing on her superiority is a nice incentive for players to not try anything... 'cute' there.), not to mention giving an absolute reason that the "Bigger Fish in the Sea" syndrome will never put a character at the top (which is incentive for more toned down characters). Sigil accepts all races the same, and fiends and celestials are even known to find at least an uneasy truce within the confines of the Cage; so the advantage for Faerûn of racial acceptance is duplicated and magnified there.

I think it would work well.
 

Bah.

Do you really think that having the tavern set in an area that has been known to have demi-god types slain is truly going to discourage people from creating demi-god characters?

Anyone ever pay attention to how many people pay attention to the sonic effects of Juxta? Or how about the part about undead not being able to visit? Or about those slain upon Juxta returning to their original realm? Or about how larger creatures tend to die faster? (Hence the lack of dragons). Last time I checked... not many did.

Not many people pay attention to THOSE details, and just because it's the CRT doesn't mean they'd pay attention to new setting details like that.

It isn't going to fix anything.

Honestly, and I mean this in the nicest way possible, it just sounds to me like people are trying to limit character classes/races/types that they don't think should be played at all online by changing the setting and demanding that it be enforced.
 

Problems and solutions, or the lack thereof. . . .

Since everyone seems to be throwing their opinions out, might I join?

No matter what setting the CRT is put in, none of these problems will go away.

First, the appearance of whatever character type and concept the players want to create will remain the same (approximately). They will never dwindle. Period. There's nothing that can be done except to ignore them if you don't like them. I understand that that would be the adult thing to do, but I'm sorry. That's how I see it. Should they attempt to roleplay (such as they might try) with you, just be polite and respectful in requesting that they find someone else. It's as easy as that. Be polite, be respectful, and request, don't demand. We're all adults; I think we can all manage that.

Second, those characters that do not strictly adhere to the setting the CRT is in will never disappear, either. People want the freedom to play what they wish. And, since we are discussing a chat site, unless they violate the COC they should be able to. (And, as far as I can tell, as far as WotC is concerned, they are.) It's one of the things that actually keeps them coming back. Freedom.

Lastly, I don't think we should be disturbing the WizOs about "setting violations" or trying to get them to strictly enforce a setting. Why? Because if the WizOs actually harped on people for setting violations, it would "chase them away". (Which, by the way, is why the WizOs are bound to, as Fen said, "give the same warnings to players over and over again".) If WotC wants the WizOs to be careful about "chasing people away" when dealing with issues of COC violation, why would it allow/encourage/whatever the WizOs to be strict about setting deviations (read: violations). Seriously, though. Why? They wouldn't.

There is an exception to the second issue. All characters not of the setting world have a distinct lack of freedom. No matter what setting the CRT is set in, all characters that are not from that setting have to get there. Here are your options:

1. Accidentally stumble on a portal. In this case, you have no choice but to settle in the campaign setting while you search for another portal, hoping it'll get you home rather than take you somewhere else. That's assuming that you want to take that risk. . . .

2. Travel there willingly. In this case, you have to have both a means (substantial magic ability or an artifact) and the knowledge of a place you have never seen or actually heard of previously. Unless, of course, you accidentally traveled there before and made it back in one piece. Usually, unless things work in reverse in a gaming world, somewhere, this option requires a character with vast experience as well. This gives a valid reason for all of the "uber-characters" that keep showing up, not that they usually care that they have a valid reason to make such characters.

Anyway, those who create a character not of (currently) Oerth must create the character with the means to come and go as they please if they want to play a character that isn't a prisoner of Oerth. It's all about freedom. I know I wouldn't be so keen to play in the CRT if I thought that the only two storylines available to my off-world character was the search for a way home or learning to live in my new prison-home. Unless your character never had family or friends, these would be the only two logical storylines you could play with such a character. Unless you have a character that is powerful enough to be free.

So, you see, there is no fix as long as the CRT is in a particular setting where other-worlders can only visit accidentally or through great power.

And, again, about the silly notion of having the WizOs enforce a particular setting, why don't we try to get our priorities straight? Before we ask of them to concern themselves about something that we are (or should be) all adult enough that we can just ignore it if we don't like it, how about we try to get them to be more strict about COC violations so they won't have to "give the same warnings to players over and over again"? Just a thought.

By the way, to address the issue of Sigil (Planescape) being an ideal setting, it still doesn't solve these problems. While Sigil is already designed to encompass all D&D worlds, it would actually limit the freedom of characters even more greatly than any other setting. Should you have a character not born in Sigil (from what I understand of the setting), you will have an even harder time using powerful magic to travel between Sigil and home. From my limited exposure to Planescape, one only leaves through a doorway (portal) and those are not permanent nor stable. (A doorway may be in the same place as when your character arrived, but it might now lead to another location.) So, you see, either there would be a decrease in patrons to the CRT (ultimately resulting in the CRT's demise) or the setting deviations continue, only now they are even more severe, just by the nature of the new setting.

As always, I mean no offense with what I write. I just think that a good, blunt opinion is needed once in a while. And I'm always willing to offer one. :D

Eddie
 

Krystal said:
Bah.

Do you really think that having the tavern set in an area that has been known to have demi-god types slain is truly going to discourage people from creating demi-god characters?

Anyone ever pay attention to how many people pay attention to the sonic effects of Juxta? Or how about the part about undead not being able to visit? Or about those slain upon Juxta returning to their original realm? Or about how larger creatures tend to die faster? (Hence the lack of dragons). Last time I checked... not many did.
In terms of it being a more widely known setting, I think it would stand a better chance. Would it fix the matter entirely, of course not. All of these issues boil down to knowledge of the setting, and Juxta isn't that well known as long as newer players disregard the informative links.

Not many people pay attention to THOSE details, and just because it's the CRT doesn't mean they'd pay attention to new setting details like that.

It isn't going to fix anything.
It would take effort and time, but I do think it's possible to make some improvements, even if things aren't solved entirely.

Honestly, and I mean this in the nicest way possible, it just sounds to me like people are trying to limit character classes/races/types that they don't think should be played at all online by changing the setting and demanding that it be enforced.
That's not what I'm saying at all, although I can see where it could be perceived that way.

My points in suggesting something like Sigil is that it would provide a well known basis where the suggested guidelines are already in place, but is a setting designed to be able to handle the types of characters that show up anyway. Sigil is known by many who come from a D&D playing background, and they can find information for it in much greater volume than most other settings. If anything, my point is to go toward something that encourages the diversity that exists and allows the things that go on in the tavern everyday make just a little more sense within setting guidelines. Demons, angels, undead, anything can show up in a setting like Sigil, and often on more peaceable terms than they would in a place like Oerth. Add to that the matter that Sigil isn't inherently Law-focused as Juxta is, and it offers more potential, the setting would be a strong option for allowing characters of nearly all types to arrive.

Admittedly, I'm not fond of actual deific characters, I've seen one or two run well, neither of which acted as openly deified as others have. But that's just me, I consider openly divine characters to be a bit excessive, especially with the increasing frequency I've been hearing of them over the past few months. A trend is a trend, some are worse than others in some players' minds, but if that's what players want, then that's fine too. Any thoughts I have on that is just an opinion, and has little bearing on what I'm suggesting. I want to see the current guidelines expanded on to allow for more options to be done reasonably rather than start clearcutting options. But at the same time, when Juxta massively weakens divine beings, and Oerth would likely have some sort of measures to prevent off-planar interloper deities from interfering in the plane, any new suggested setting restrictions wouldn't be entirely new.

So in short, I agree, changing the setting won't be a quick fix. However, I do see it as a potential step in a direction that would bring some life back to the site.

-------

I agree with much of what Eddie has said as well, all good points. And opinions are, of course, welcome! :D

Originally posted by Eddie_Hawkins
By the way, to address the issue of Sigil (Planescape) being an ideal setting, it still doesn't solve these problems. While Sigil is already designed to encompass all D&D worlds, it would actually limit the freedom of characters even more greatly than any other setting. Should you have a character not born in Sigil (from what I understand of the setting), you will have an even harder time using powerful magic to travel between Sigil and home. From my limited exposure to Planescape, one only leaves through a doorway (portal) and those are not permanent nor stable. (A doorway may be in the same place as when your character arrived, but it might now lead to another location.) So, you see, either there would be a decrease in patrons to the CRT (ultimately resulting in the CRT's demise) or the setting deviations continue, only now they are even more severe, just by the nature of the new setting.
True enough in many ways, and complicated further by the WotC Official stance on the planes concerning different Primes as of 3E (differentiating the Great Wheel cosmology of Oerth, the so called "Great Tree" of Toril, and Krynn's... I'm not so well versed on Krynn :P).

And indeed, Sigilians would have an easier time of it if using Sigil, but this is to be expected for setting natives regardless of setting used. I see this as a roleplaying potential as well as a potential road block. Then again, setting it on a single Prime presents the same problems, but on a larger scale, and as the general consensus seems to be that Juxta isn't quite working, I'm just looking for an option that would carry the interplanar feel and help with what is already around. I'll have to look into the stability of Sigillian portal systems on that one, unless a well versed Planescape fan cares to field that issue first.

I still think it could work though.

(And that's likely another convoluted post, eh Bhryn ;) :smirk: )
 

On a tangent:

This is the way debates should go, I think.

I just hope no one has taken offense at anything I write. I tend to be blunt and to the point. But I am glad to see that it seems you haven't taken anything I've said ill, which was the original intent.

I know it's odd, but since I've seen so many flame wars... I just want to say thanks for not making this one.

Back to your regu'arly scheduled debatin'
 

So, time for a ramble..

When I first came on site, too long ago, I barely recall it. I signed in, under those AOL days, and was soon lost so fast I couldn't keep up. I signed out, and not long after, lost the password to the first character I had dared venture on site.

But, not to be thwarted, I came back not so much later. I picked, for this, an old favorite of mine from tabletop days, a soft spoken elven maid who at the time, had never dared venture too far from home.

I didn't know the setting was on Oerth at the time, after all, I was still lost by the whole situation.

I was playing a Cleric of Paladine, a servant of Krynn's (Dragonlance's) pantheon.

You know what, it didn't matter.

Despite the setting being some tavern on Oerth, The masses seemed mostly based from Krynn.

We had Clerics of Paladine by the handful, and a few darker Clerics of Takhisis about to keep us on our toes..

We had wizards of High Sorcery, in White, Red, and Black..

We had kender..

We had assasins devoted to Takhisis, and bards true to Branchala..

We had the Irda, the Half-elves, the minotaur children of Sargonnas..

The setting, was dominated by Krynnish based persons.. I really did enjoy that.

And yet, not once, did we ever seek to change the setting with posts and rambles on the Message Boards..

For a while, we didn't have message boards..

So what is my point, besides a reminisce, and the showing of age?

The point is, the popular settings come and go, they change and flow with the tide of minds and conciousness. Once Krynn, now Faerun, and someday in the future perhaps everyone will be from Oerth itself, or be 'Jammers..

Yet even as things continue to change and grow, the 'Roads of Oerth, is still in existence. It is still a haven to the restless wanderers who seek shelter, or a place to sit and chat among friends.

I find all suggestions of moving the tavern's locale, in truth, simply ridiculous.

The 'Roads, has existed on Oerth, for more years than most on site can recall.. and not once, has it ever been a problem for persons playing characters from other realms.

There are some arguments put forth, that say changing the locale will help enforce the setting or rules, and make it more playable..

No it won't.

People, will always play in their own styles, and believe their own ideas. People will forever ignore any and all setting rules they dislike or find not to their interests.. If they are doing so now, they will continue to do so in the future, no matter where the tavern is located. Some persons, just want to play their own way, and will always! do so. They don't care for the rules, or the setting, and no change of setting or environment will ever correct it.

Moving the tavern, won't help. But I do suggest, that it will cause some harm, or at least unrest..

When the tavern was on Juxta, for a time, the entire situation was frowned upon by many of the oldies on the site.

The Tavern blowing up in the first place, was viewed with distrust..

Moving the tavern means we toss aside all the things that have already been established about the tavern.. the owner, her house rules, the town of Ford's Keep, the usual places people settle in at..

Therefore, finally, enough rambling..

Do not move the tavern.. do not punish all of those persons who enjoy the environment, for the disrespectful actions of the few.
 

To answer the question about trying to forbid or make it harder for certain races.....

In a way I wouldn't mind one bit if they were but that wasn't the main point of the original post but a way of showing examples later.

I started back in the AOL days myself after I completed my tour in the Marine Corps. I remember that there used to be a disclosure saying you had to be at least 13 to come to the chat site and if you weren't and found out later you would be banned. I happen to remember that several of the players actually did try to get the setting changed to Krynn though a very unsuccessful and short lived attempt. I don't think that if someone has been around from the beginning or just a few months has any bearing what so ever on the discussion at hand. Yes us "old fogies" have seen alot more than the newer players but throwing around time on site as a way to make it seem as an opinion must be right is the wrong way to go. That is why I don't do it though some would say I have every right to do so. I didn't mean that last bit as a flame of any kind to any single person so please only take it as the advice I was offering it as.

I sincerely believe that if any OFFICIAL setting is used then the rules of the setting should be enforced. We might have a form of FFRP here BUT when one of the rooms is D&D setting with set rules they should be followed. When they aren't it isn't Greyhawk that we are playing in but a very very sad imitation of it. Does that limit creativity? Yes but for the most part if a very positive way. On the other hand it makes for even more creativity in the back stories of the characters. A shift of attention from one aspect of the character to another. In my opinion a shift from one of the least important aspects to one of the most important aspects.

Even the settings we have now could be for the most part would be "better" in many ways if there was stricter adherence to the setting and enforcement of the setting what ever they might be. Many think that stricter enforcement isn't a good thing though many think it is. Mature role players(note I said role not roll) realize the rules and enforcement of them bring a setting more to life and with a sense of quasi realism. When the rules aren't enforced you don't have a setting but a poorly executed idea with no real shape or form. I've been to several chat sites that strictly adhere to the rules set for by their respective gaming systems. When you log into those sites they have many more players logged on and happily roleplaying their characters with a tenth of the strife or dissention compared to the FFRP sites that I have been to.

I know that many will view what I have said as an elitist attitude towards D&D and its settings. I would be saying the same thing if one of the settings was Shadowrun, VTM, Werewolf, Mage, Changling, Cyberpunk 2020, Wheel of Time or any of the other great role playing games out there. When a setting is made into a chat room the rules of the setting should be followed to ensure the integrity of the system or setting. No I'm not saying you should have to roll dice to see if you can walk across the floor without stumbling, that would be roll playing which I hate both online and in table top play.
 

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