Crt

[Krystal]

You still can't get past the fact that those of us who come here are not REQUIRED to adhere to any rules save those of the CoC.

If we want to have some uber powerful character or even unpowerful one, we get to choose which rules we abide by. That's just the way this site is and has been.

And how many of the people come on don't trully know the rules? You want to know what, I'm sure it's many. Why, do you say? Because when I started, I didn't know a damn thing about roleplaying besides the "There's rules, some sort of character sheet thing that I don't know what's on it, and you pretend to be someone."

I didn't know much about levels, adventures, race crap... NOTHING in the rules books that could be used without dice. And you know what, I found many good friends through finally going into table top playing because of how much fun I'd had online HERE in this VERY chat site.

Are we going to discourage new news? Are we going to turn this into an (in my opinion) elitist site where if you don't know the rules and play by them, you're not welcomed?

I don't think so. And good luck convincing wizards to go along with that idea.

And to be completely honest, if you visit other chat sites/rooms that have and embody what you want here... why haven't you gone the route so many others have? Stop coming here and go there.

 

[Eddie_Hawkins]

I see. . . .

First, thanks for the support Dontella. It's nice to know there is someone out there who sees that we aren't misinterpreting the call for a change in setting as people feeling that doing so would be a quick fix, who sees the reality of the situation and is trying to get the point across to them.

What reality and what point? That players are always going to make the characters they want and a change in scenery won't ever fix any of the problems we've been discussing, even in the long run. Why? Because, as I said before, WotC just won't allow the WizOs to be so strict for fear of chasing people away.

Second, Fen, thanks for backing us "not-so-old-fogeys" and reminding others that our opinions are no less valid because we haven't been around as long.

And I can't believe you believe that ANY limitation of creativity is a good thing. As it says in the beginning of every edition of every D&D game ever produced: "These rules are guidelines. If they don't work for you, change them or ignore them." The creators of D&D, as you can see, saw creativity as a thing to be nurtured, not limited. Besides, ask any creator of any official D&D world if they think their world is perfect, or if it is right for everyone just as it is, without any kind of customization. I know they'd say no. Otherwise, they'd never go to WotC (TSR for you "fogeys") to have their world published, because their view wouldn't mesh with the publishers of D&D.

Limitation of creativity is NOT a good thing, and it never will be.

What it sounds like to me is that you would rather no characters from worlds other than the chat site's setting be allowed. I get this impression because you say that you are against setting violations and "uber-characters" that can come and go as they please without being imprisoned in the current setting world.

As I have said before, I disagree since enforcing the setting to such a degree as well as disallowing characters that are able to come and go as they please limits the freedom and creativity of FFRP (now called ISRP, by the way - Interactive Story Roleplaying).

What you are proposing is contrary to the whole idea of FFRP. You are proposing that the site become a strict setting only. Well, like Krys said, if you dislike Free Form so much, and you know where "your kind" of sites exist, why are you here? Why don't you go where you'll be happy instead of trying to change this site into a place where others won't? Besides, if you succeeded, where would be the freedom in "Free Form"?

I am not trying to be malicious here, I'm just curious and confused. In case you haven't noticed, people are more or less happy with the way things are. And here you come trying to change a place into something they won't be happy with when you already have admitted that you have already found a place that you are happy with? Most curious, and most confusing.

(By the way, your comment about the difference between "role-" and "roll-" playing is absolutely unneeded since we are discussing a site without a dicebot. Just thought I'd be an annoying nit-picker and point that out. As Gary Gygax would say, "Cheers.")

In my opinion, I don't think stricter enforcement of setting would encourage stronger development of character backstories. If someone doesn't want to spend the time on a backstory, nothing is going to change that. For that matter, some people just can't do backstories. I know a few of them. And limiting where their creative strengths actually lie won't help. Limiting someone's creativity, in any way, has a nasty habit of limiting all of one's creativity, not just part of it leaving the other parts to grow and flourish.

I agree with your comment about others believing that you have an elitist attitude, because you do. I'm sure no one believes that your elitist attitude is restricted to D&D, mind you by your own admission. I'm sure others have the correct impression that your elitist attitude applies to all rpgs.

And one more thing. If the WizOs start being more strict about setting, those who come to the site for their first roleplaying experience will be chased away. Why do I think this? Well, before one can adhere to the setting, one must not just be aware of the specifics of the setting, they will have to know the setting in order to avoid being banned. In Krystal's case, she never would have actually tried roleplaying because she would have gotten a poor view of the gaming community. I'm surprised that this sort of thing doesn't bother such an avid advocate of roleplaying or rollplaying.

Forget the fact that WotC is trying to attract new potential gamers, not repel them (or "chase them away"), which is one of the reasons they haven't shut down this chat site (which is something of a cash sinkhole). Those of us who have roleplayed with Krystal (among other characters online), just ask Dontella, would have missed out on a rich roleplaying experience. If you make the site less attractive to those who have never roleplayed before, and want to try it, you may not only be cheating the rest of us out of an enjoyable roleplaying experience, but you just might be cheating yourself out of one, as well.

In my opinion, some of the best roleplayers are those who start out playing their characters with no knowledge of game mechanics whatsoever. Let other places be like you want them to be, since they already are, and let this one remain a place that can show a person sincerely interested in roleplaying how to do it right.

 

[Ssussunriyh]

Re: I see. . . .

(By the way, your comment about the difference between "role-" and "roll-" playing is absolutely unneeded since we are discussing a site without a dicebot. Just thought I'd be an annoying nit-picker and point that out. As Gary Gygax would say, "Cheers.")

Actually, the site does have several dicebots, and not just in the gaming rooms. There is one in the ISRP area, located in the Arena, named "Warden." (Although in my experience, the dicebot is seldom used, if ever, in the combat that goes on there...)

As for stifling creativity, should creativity be encouraged to the point of being done with a total lack of self-restraint? Because I have seen some characters and events that go way beyond the merely unusual, into the patently absurd...

 

[Krystal]

I think so. Creativity is creativity, period. Just because I don' think it's very creative or even all that reasonable doesn't change it.

Besides, what you think is absurd, others might think is interesting.

 

[Ssussunriyh]

I suppose a free-form roleplaying site suffers from the same problem as the National Endowment for the Arts: with no set standards, you get a few brilliant results, some good results, some mediocre, some bad, and some stuff that's just plain crap.

 

[WizO_Pounamu]

Well, replying while tired and in need of distraction is probably not a wise idea and I'm likely to say something worthy of getting myself shot. But...

A few things I'd like to point out for thought.

ISRP is not FFRP. The definition says it all - Interactive rather than free form. What the hell does that mean? It means that rather than the entire thing being a blank canvas for players to create masterworks or chaos in, there are guides that you are expected to take note of; namely the setting and the coopperation of other players.
If it were entirely freeform, we'd have not only elves and dragons crossing full fledged jedi knights or gundam wings but also being suddenly told that they're not on ___ anymore because a group of school friends have suddenly all logged on and outnumber the others, therefore the world is wherever Goku and DBZ is from (I can't remember in this state of mind. lol). Freeform is "anything goes".
Interactive means there is some stuff there already. Setting, setting "rules", stories.

So far I still await the day when someone presents a flawless proposal of how to keep everyone happy, so we do the best we can. Some people felt that the Emporium was too open and wanted a stricter setting: Greyhawk was returned. Ironically, in terms of IC rules it goes the other way - Siani's CRT is outside Greyhawk city, in a semi lawless "no man's land" whereas Juxta is far more lawful - or would be if players wanted/accepted IC enforcement of IC laws.
People complained that WizOs had too much power in enforcing IC things even to setting issues and so the reins were loosened. Not to a point where all would be lost entirely but theoretically enough to permit more creativity. Unfortunately I see and hear of more problems.

TMP by the way is still on the cards. It was postphoned (too many times, badly timed) by priority changes and circumstance, and by the lax both from myself during school difficulties and by the players who never bothered sending in the work they were contributing to the creation.
In discussions on the boards it was decided that TMP would be a stricter setting to give it some realism of the modern day licensed premises it is supposed to be, which would satisfy some peoples' desire for a tighter setting - except it is sci-fi/fantasy, not "pure" fantasy.

Flipside is of course the existance of Limbo, for those that want to be in a different setting entirely. Not completely FFRP, you have to have at least 3 people, one guiding... But you can pick where you are.

What else?

Ahh yes, there are dicebots avaliable for combat on this site. Combat in ISRP, but of course whole games in the Gaming rooms. It's just a lil pointless to have dicebots in all the isrp rooms when most people are playing by different systems if by systems at all, and would consider something calling out OOC info (dice rolls) as disruption.
There was supposed to be our Valkyrie as dicebot in the Clearing. Along with the Gardengolem, she's been lurking in the creator's wings - no pun intended.


The question, as always, ends up as "what would you like"?

- Tired Pounamu...

 

[Jeajea]

Yes the god characters are supposed to be weakened there. Before that gods and their avatars weren't even supposed to show up at all but that didn't stop the three avatars of Tymora, and dozens of other god characters. As I said in a previous post people aren't paying attention to the room description or simply aren't bothering to read it. Alot of people only remember that the Emporium has portals to just about anywhere they seem to forget that not everything can enter Juxta unhindered.

You are, I take it, talking about my characters? If you pay attention, there are only two, and they are both weakened very much in the emporium. They always try to avoid fights there. As for why they would come to the CRT on Greyhawk... well, they wouldn't. That's the simple answer. But as a player who likes his characters, I don't have an alternative - the CRT is where it is, ditto the emporium, and though I don't always use these rooms as they are 'meant' to be used, I do so on a good basis - it's quite difficult to.

Originally posted by Krystal
Honestly, and I mean this in the nicest way possible, it just sounds to me like people are trying to limit character classes/races/types that they don't think should be played at all online by changing the setting and demanding that it be enforced.

Amen. I play an Avatar. I understand your grievances with people who play Gods badly, and Godly beings and Demon Princes and so forth, badly, but... limiting the types of characters that can come onto this site and have fun isn't the way forwards. Obviously, I would be against such a thing as my main character is an Avatar of Tymora (a male Avatar, no less... gasp, shock, horror, setting rules have been broken!). But what you suggest, Fen, would not work, because the provisos we have at the moment don't work. I don't want to see the WizOs becoming even stricter. I want to see people like you and me making an effort to improve other roleplayers.

Originally posted by Fenmarel
I've been to several chat sites that strictly adhere to the rules set for by their respective gaming systems. When you log into those sites they have many more players logged on and happily roleplaying their characters with a tenth of the strife or dissention compared to the FFRP sites that I have been to.

Why not RP there, then? Why try to improve this site? That sort of system is obviously the type you prefer, but FFRP is not about that, is it? In a sense, FFRP is a setting-less system. What I mean is, it *cannot* be used with a specific setting. But we have to have earth beneath our feet, so on Oerth the 'Roads is. However,

Originally posted by Fenmarel
I know that many will view what I have said as an elitist attitude towards D&D and its settings. I would be saying the same thing if one of the settings was Shadowrun, VTM, Werewolf, Mage, Changling, Cyberpunk 2020, Wheel of Time or any of the other great role playing games out there. When a setting is made into a chat room the rules of the setting should be followed to ensure the integrity of the system or setting. No I'm not saying you should have to roll dice to see if you can walk across the floor without stumbling, that would be roll playing which I hate both online and in table top play.

What, then, friend? That *is* an elitist view. Simple as. And of course you would say the same for other settings, and such an approach suits many people. I agree with you that this chat site doesn't work as it stands now, but it cannot improve to the level you want without changing from FFRP to dice gaming.

Originally posted by Eddie_Hawkins
players are always going to make the characters they want and a change in scenery won't ever fix any of the problems we've been discussing, even in the long run. Why? Because, as I said before, WotC just won't allow the WizOs to be so strict for fear of chasing people away.

Ironically, I think that this approach manages to chase many people away because many people get annoyed by the lower standards of RP that go on as a result of a less strict approach. The less good RPers themselves tend to leave, too, along with the better RPers, as a result of the interactions between these two sets of people. The site looses out overall. I would say, even, that Wizards doesn't get what she wants - to encourage more players.

But what can the WizOs do? In all seriousness, it seems to me that they have an almost thankless job, until recently didn't get much by way of payment (and now... who knows?), and they get to constantly be heckled as the 'bad guys' by both us (making demands for changes and never being happy with what we have... anything to avoid making an actual effort ourselves to encourage good RP ourselves... Eddie's opinion 'if you don't like it, ignore it' speaks volumes there, I think), by both us and people who are semi-gamers who like to godmode and try to be the most important person in the room (resulting in cliques... non? We don't like to just hand importance to any old person, that would devalue the meaning of 'importance'. So we ignore these people, eh?).

Ahh, but what the hell. This debate is getting boring. I know what I think about this site, and it's... not good. I've spent no less than two hours trying to make this post. It seems to me that we spend a lot of effort on things like this, but when is the last time I saw some storylines thread working out? Come on, people, this isn't the place for all this energy. Let's get positive and get the evil out to play, eh?

 

[Bhryn Astairre]

Okay, now I'm getting too confused by the sudden upsurgence of backbiting going on here. And let's be honest, it doesn't take much to confuse me

The way I see, as a subjective viewpoint on all of this, is that two groups of people exist: those who want there to be more structure and guidelines in how/where they play and those who don't give a toss so long as they're having fun and everyone has fun along with them.

I have to say, whilst I do love having 'guidelines' to work with when building up characters, and yes, all my characters have their specific stats etc all marked out, there is never anything more fun that just 'doing' something for the fun of it, and so long as everyone else has fun in the doing then what really is the problem? Is it because some of those standing on the 'dice' side of these games would rather have a level playing field because their creativity isn't upto the same scratch as those who prefer a more free formed and creativity friendly type of play?

As stated, if you really do feel the need for a more structured type of play (yawn, roll 1d20 to see if he picks up the glass. 13, okay, he -considers- it) and you indeed have found somewhere else that does cater to your needs as a player then what is stopping you from going there? If it's the people you interact with here then why not ask them to come and try it out with you? It can't hurt to try after all, but remember to keep the definition between a more freer style of playing and the structured one, you can always come back if it gets too tedious for you.

A lot of the animosity surrounding the style of play has been directed at the setting itself, but how can you blame a setting that caters only to fantasy people for it's shortcomings? You can't. A lot of people are used to how wizards is being run and I don't honestly seeing it changing any time soon, because it's a good way to roleplay between characters.

However, perhaps asking for a new seperate setting with harsher guidelines and rules to be added might be more of your cup of tea. That way things would be more controlled and to your liking.

Or better yet, try to start an online roleplaying group and ask for use of one of the many rooms that wizards has set aside for these purposes. It will satiate your need for a firm, guided storyline as well as the dice/and rules that are wanted.

One the subject of creativity, I have to say that knowing there is a limit to what a -character- can and cannot do is a wonderful thing, but stretching their storylines to the very limit of how they can be played etc is also a wonderful thing. It challenges not only you as the player, but the character and those that know them. I'm not saying that flooding with insane levels of 'powah' (Greyskull, heehee) is fun, but keeping it reasonable and remembering the setting does 'dumb you down', hence why my celestial more often than not ends up looking like Mike Tyson's dance partner. If she was in her own realm, things would be a different matter. :: shrugs :: But I enjoy playing her that way, my lil' punchbag (more often than not to the despair of others).

It seems that some people want to limit the extent of character freedom and choice, which is terrible! A character choosing why and how they are somewhere and with other people of vastly differing backgrounds is great (Krys being a prime example of movement from one world to another). I think the mixture of 'cultures' between characters allows for a richer gameplay experience.

The tavern itself has become an intrinsic part of the semi-lawless facet that allows integration and collaboration of different backgrounds and classes character wise and the merging of these types whilst being in what could be described as a 'cosy' setting has produced many enjoyable hours of fun and interaction. Don't try and demean what others enjoy by barking and asking for changes, just enjoy what has been given to you without pouting and stamping your feet.

Now, stop confusing me, because I'm getting a headache!

Bhryn: had her rant for the week!

 

[Kathryn_aka_Kat]

*throws her two coppers into the ring (and mixes her metaphors )*

Kat wants the tavern to stay where it is because that's why they put her cottage in Ford Keep. So she can walk to the bloody place (not literally bloody, Siani!) without bothering about portals.

Kat's non-DnD player would very much appreciate having the tavern stay where it is because otherwise buying the Greyhawk guides and trying to memorize the gods and the local geography all goes out the window.

But neither of us has a problem with Juxta becoming Sigil.

I don't have a problem with limits because anything over about 10th-15th level is unplayable to me, much less thinking of calling myself an avatar or paragon or such, lol! Just a lack of imagination, I guess.

 

[rom]

my turn

Time for me to throw my fish in as well.

It matters not where it is, if its on Oerth, Toril, Mars, or Loony Land. There will always be characters from more genres of games than can be accounted for. As it stands now, we have races from all over the place, from almost every world ever created by the authors, not just from DnD, but other fantasy/sci fi authors as well. Yes, Forgotten realms settings seem to dominate, but there are a few diehards that stick with Greyhawk and a few even from the Wheel of Time series.

My point is (i think), no one is gonna pay the slightest bit of attention to where the tavern is, or if its called juxta or sigil or Lala land. Laws and rules be damned, people are going to do whatever they want to do. So roll with it. You are going to have the characters no matter what. Yes i think some changes should be made, but thats a personal feeling and somewhat irrelevent. I will continue to RP in WIZ no matter what the realms or lands are. (unless Carebear tavern returns, then I'm outta here)

For those that don't like it, tough. Get over it, or get out. harsh but true

Ok--enough seriousness, back to being Rom (bucket_head)

.... I have seen some characters and events that go way beyond the merely unusual, into the patently absurd...

I do believe Rom qualifies as the patently absurd! hehehe