Curbing Multi-classing

[airwalkrr]

The original poster stated that he dislikes the ease of how his new kitchen tools prepare fruit salad, and that he'd prefer to have each fruit separately, because he prefers their taste that way, so he is going to try and devise a method to prepare his fruits with his new tools, but keep them separate.

That's a pretty good analogy. Heck I almost felt pity myself. But ladies and gentlemen of the jury, this... is Chewbacca.

Sorry for the digression. Honestly you had me there for a second, and your argument is well-reasoned. But on closer inspection of the analogy, it's inadequate. What I truly dislike would not be described as the ease of how my new kitchen tools prepare fruit salad, but rather that the new tools either mix fruit too fast or blends the flavor in a way to make it unfavorable to my palate. What I'm saying is that I am trying to design new tools to cut my fruit the way I like it. Others who enjoy the puree' created by the Whiz-O-Blender 9000 are more than welcome to use it and redeem its benefits. As for me, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I actually understand the Sorcerer, because it is required and you want to follow the published rules, and it actually has indeed a concept twist, although the twist could have been granted by the Dragon Disciple itself (e.g. it could have had its own minor spellcasting progression).

But it's actually the Barbarian/Fighter combo which IMHO (please don't take offense... ) is a weak concept. Why did you choose this? IMXP combinations like Ftr/Barb, Ftr/Rang and Ftr/Pal are nearly always dictated by convenience, not by concept, UNLESS the character actually starts as one and the follows the second fully (like a Barbarian leaving his tribe and becoming a urban citizen, or a normal fighter embracing the Paladin path). But those classes like Barbarian or Ranger or Paladins are originally all spin-offs of the Fighter. They already ARE fighters in their own way. Choosing to take some fighter levels is 99% of the time (IMXP) a matter of wanting some more feats, and then AFTERWARDS trying to explain that in terms of concept.

It's not that bad, it's been done all the time... but I wanted to point out that it is not truly necessary for the concept.

You know, I was about to say exactly the same thing. Thank you for saying it for me. I too, have found that this is almost always the case with Ftr/Brb mixes. The character dips into Brb just to get the rage and fast movement (and maybe the uncanny dodge), then goes off to whatever prestige class suits his fancy. Everyone keeps talking about me trying to limit others' imaginations, but to be honest, this itself is rather unimaginative. First of all, everyone is doing it so it certainly isn't original. Second of all, it rarely makes sense from a role-playing perspective. Fighters don't just wander off into the wilderness and suddenly become savage, nor do barbarians just waltz into a city and automatically learn how to read.

IMC, I reduce the benefit of dipping into Brb by reducing the benefits of rage to +2 Str and Con (same AC penalty) until level 6. It helps a bit.

 

[ARandomGod]

But it's actually the Barbarian/Fighter combo which IMHO (please don't take offense... ) is a weak concept. Why did you choose this? IMXP combinations like Ftr/Barb, Ftr/Rang and Ftr/Pal are nearly always dictated by convenience, not by concept, UNLESS the character actually starts as one and the follows the second fully (like a Barbarian leaving his tribe and becoming a urban citizen, or a normal fighter embracing the Paladin path).

Actually that's exactly what I had happen... the character started out as a barbarian, a strapping big one. But felt an .. urge, a prediliction towards magic, which lead him to the city, to try to discover his roots. Plus the barbarian tribe he was from felt distinctly uneasy about magic, not so much exiling him as letting him know he should seek life experience elsewhere. While he was in the city he took up fighter training (because that's what he knew, fighting) and trained until he found some interesting information about his blood-line, and started doing some arcane rituals which brought on the changes of Dragon Disciple (because that's the flavor I/we chose to give to DD as to why and how it works).

Of course, he's got no more than two levels in barbarian or fighter... and I see your point about convinence. Was it convinence that I did this? In some ways. I did want two more feats, and there was nothing stopping me. Could I make a good story as to why? I could and did!

You know, I was about to say exactly the same thing. Thank you for saying it for me. I too, have found that this is almost always the case with Ftr/Brb mixes. The character dips into Brb just to get the rage and fast movement (and maybe the uncanny dodge), then goes off to whatever prestige class suits his fancy.

Ah HA! Nope, I dipped into fighter for two bonus feats. Ok, it’s almost the same, but different. Oh, and that character did not get the fast movement from barbarian, as the concept had him in full plate. Sure, I could have had just as good AC and kept the fast movement, however that wasn’t the story I wanted. But you’re right about going on to whatever PrC I wanted. I needed to fill 5 levels before I could get DD, and one of those five needed to be sorc. I didn’t want four full levels of barb nor did I want four full levels of fighter, I see both those possibilities as bland and unimaginative.

Everyone keeps talking about me trying to limit others' imaginations, but to be honest, this itself is rather unimaginative. First of all, everyone is doing it so it certainly isn't original. Second of all, it rarely makes sense from a role-playing perspective. Fighters don't just wander off into the wilderness and suddenly become savage, nor do barbarians just waltz into a city and automatically learn how to read.

IMC, I reduce the benefit of dipping into Brb by reducing the benefits of rage to +2 Str and Con (same AC penalty) until level 6. It helps a bit.

Well, you can call anything unimaginative with enough justification. The net result is still you saying YOU don’t like that type of imagination, so they can’t have it. I said above I would have found four levels of barb or four of fighter to be unimaginative, but I would have let someone DO that if they wanted. I would have tried to talk them out of it, sure, in fact I have tried to talk pple out of doing just that type of thing. But that’s persuasion, not dictation. BTW< in all the best novel I’ve read fighters indeed DO wander off into the wilderness and become savage, or savages wander into the city to become civil. From a roleplaying perspective, IMO, a fighter who’d be unwilling to leave the city and discover savagery, or a barbarian who would distain leaving his tribe should… well.. stay in his tribe (or city). Those ppl shouldn’t become adventurers at all! They’re not interested in adventure anyhow.

 

[Li Shenron]

Actually that's exactly what I had happen... the character started out as a barbarian, a strapping big one. But felt an .. urge, a prediliction towards magic, which lead him to the city, to try to discover his roots. Plus the barbarian tribe he was from felt distinctly uneasy about magic, not so much exiling him as letting him know he should seek life experience elsewhere. While he was in the city he took up fighter training (because that's what he knew, fighting) and trained until he found some interesting information about his blood-line, and started doing some arcane rituals which brought on the changes of Dragon Disciple (because that's the flavor I/we chose to give to DD as to why and how it works).

Of course, he's got no more than two levels in barbarian or fighter... and I see your point about convinence. Was it convinence that I did this? In some ways. I did want two more feats, and there was nothing stopping me. Could I make a good story as to why? I could and did!

Well your story is nice enough to brush some of the guilt off your shoulders

BTW, another typical symptom of the problem is the gaming group removing all Xp multiclassing penalties. Players want to ditch the penalties because "they restrict imagination" but they only want to dip into other classes with no penalties and without having to shun their favourite race.

 

[ARandomGod]

... the character started out as a barbarian, a strapping big one. But felt an .. urge, a prediliction towards magic, which lead him to the city, to try to discover his roots.

Now, I feel I should also meantion that he started out as a level one character. Which in many ways makes storylines like the above a little obsolete.

In reality he left his tribe after becoming only level one, and I have in the story that he manifested some magic, but of course in game mechanics he did no such thing. And he took his second level in Barb while out of the tribe, but then all barbarians who start out as level one do so out of the tribe -- Ok, almost all.

Then he spent some time learning to harness his power. (Level three was sorc) However it was relatively weak, and so dissapointed he took up training as a fighter. He couldn't go back to his tribe, and didn't really feel very connected with them anymore. However he didn't give up his research into the arcane (knowlege: Arcana 8 as a prerequisite, and it fits THIS story well), and he found hints of a ritual, as well as some tests which confirmed that he had draconic heritage. And so, at level five, he started the rituals and took his first steps into the Dragon Disciple PrC.

That was the extent of his story, as he never leveled past 15. ^_^

 

[ARandomGod]

Well your story is nice enough to brush some of the guilt off your shoulders

BTW, another typical symptom of the problem is the gaming group removing all Xp multiclassing penalties. Players want to ditch the penalties because "they restrict imagination" but they only want to dip into other classes with no penalties and without having to shun their favourite race.

Well, to be fair I just enjoy making up stories. That's why I game.

Racials.... Now that's a slightly different topic. I personally do like to remove the racial multiclassing penalties (edit: And benifits). I dissaprove of "favored class", in that I feel THAT is simply about stereotyping.

Note that I'm fully capable of arguing on the other side, in that I've dabbled in racial building and I've used the "favored class" as a parital balance to the class. But it seems more normal to me that the favored class fits in with the classes strengths and I've never seen evidence that anyone else has used it with a balance in mind, all I've seen in published works is (as I said above) having it there to enforce racial stereotyping.

(Edit: I also see this as taking something away from human 'versitility', and I give them a minor something in return... IMC the human racial skill point can be spent as if it were a class skill point in any skill. But only that one (or four at level one). Useful for dabbling in those cross class skills, or for really intensively studying one skill that 'normally' someone of your class couldn't be bothered to learn)
But, as I said, a slightly different topic.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

That's a pretty good analogy. Heck I almost felt pity myself. But ladies and gentlemen of the jury, this... is Chewbacca.

Sorry for the digression. Honestly you had me there for a second, and your argument is well-reasoned. But on closer inspection of the analogy, it's inadequate. What I truly dislike would not be described as the ease of how my new kitchen tools prepare fruit salad, but rather that the new tools either mix fruit too fast or blends the flavor in a way to make it unfavorable to my palate. What I'm saying is that I am trying to design new tools to cut my fruit the way I like it. Others who enjoy the puree' created by the Whiz-O-Blender 9000 are more than welcome to use it and redeem its benefits. As for me, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Okay, who dressed me up in this horribly hairy and sweaty costume? Is just another example that nobody can grasp the sentiment of somebody else better than that somebody else himself.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I'm just so sick of multi-classing PCs. The idea of the archetype is gone.

I think your looking at archetype too narrowly.

I think Stalker has the right of it; one problem is that the D&D class system does not cleanly map to the most common fantasy archetypes. While they mimic a number of professions well, most fantasy fiction doesn't seem to use them.

When's the last time you read a novel about a guy who fights really well... but can't do anything else? People who fight well are either almost always either politically-proficient nobles or they're capable of taking care of themselves in the woods. Or they're assassins, for no discernible reason, but I digress.

There are plenty of Wizards in fantasy novels... but how many of them run out of spells and are useless for the day? Most fantasy Wizards are also encylopedic stores of knowledge and wisdom-- unless they're capable of strapping on a sword and wading into melee alongside the warriors.

To replicate most characters from fantasy fiction, you need multiple D&D classes.

Why does each class get max HP or 4x skill points if it's the first level taken? (That is, how many people take level 1 as a Rogue simply for the massive skill points?)

I've long considered giving double skill points for the first three levels (starting play at 3rd level) instead of quadruple at first, but I've never really looked at hit points before. I've always given max at 1st and average at 2+. There's little enough difference between max and average that 1st level character could surivive gaining average at 1st level, especially if the minimum die type were d6.

Of course, this doesn't really address restricted multi-classing, except that skill-heavy classes will want to progress to level 3 instead of taking a single-level dip.

If you ask me, Gestalt rules found in the Unearthed Arcana is the ultimate solution... with a few tweaks.

Have the players pick two core classes. They MUST stick with the two core classes until they are able to prestige. After that point, they can choose to level in a prestige class and one or the other of their core classes.

I'm using a variant in which characters pick a Base class and an NPC class; the NPC classes are all modified somewhat to fit this. I remove a lot of "half-class" classes, like Ranger, Psychic Warrior, and so on, since they function as Gestalts. (I'm working on combining the Ranger and Scout classes, to combine with Warrior for the spell-less Ranger, or to combine with Adept for a more mystical, less combative Ranger.)

Then, you get a 10% XP penalty for every different Gestalt combination you select, with the exception of your first Gestalt and your first Prestige Gestalt. I need to rework my Favored Gestalt rules, since they were based on Base Gestalt, but the gist of it was that characters got a 10% XP boost when advancing in their Favored Gestalt, which for half-Humans was their first Gestalt and for full Humans was every level.

This works out for basic archetype selection, since you have the Noble Fighter, the Street Fighter, and the Mystic Fighter-- or the Noble Wizard, Expert Wizard, and Warrior Wizard. It allows characters to have a clear, fairly versatile archetype, but also prevents them from cherry-picking all the good abilities in a number of other classes. It also prevents the most horrifying examples of Gestalt powergaming.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Everyone keeps talking about me trying to limit others' imaginations, but to be honest, this itself is rather unimaginative. First of all, everyone is doing it so it certainly isn't original. Second of all, it rarely makes sense from a role-playing perspective. Fighters don't just wander off into the wilderness and suddenly become savage, nor do barbarians just waltz into a city and automatically learn how to read.

I think your perception of what a class means to a character differs greatly from mine.

Fx, character concept and Growth: Fred of the Red Beard...

Fred grew up as an Orphan living in the city of Santuary. He was brought into the fold by the beggers guild but, being a stockliy built lad, was not well suited for the life of beggers and his stubby fingers could never get the hang of filching from passing pockets. He was, however, quite talented at slipping unseen through the darkness, his step as light as a cat but horrendus at keeping his temper. The Guild used him as a strong-arm, working alongside some older knee-cappers in recovering overdue debts. Well it wasn't the best of lives, it was a life. As he got older his partners started teaching him about identifying marks and judging the value of items. He also trained alongside Algernon, learning how to slip in through back windows and avoid the traps some rich merchants invested in... all in his duty of waking the poor merchant up with his signature flair.
One autumn a particularly nasty gentlemen completely trounced Fred and his partners with an odd weapon, some kind of double headed axe. Fred was suitably impressed and decided that, after assasinating the Dwarf, he would use this weird axe. It took a couple of years, and he had to pay Mr Barker, the Deneithian Mercenary's master trainer to get it right.
Some years later, Mr Barker caught up to him at the Drunken Turtle, a real dive that place, and offered him a salaried job up north... but cautioned that he would have to learn some new skills as he would be working around nobles.. but his specialization with the double headed Axe would do him well.

When he shows up at the city of lights, he is:
BrB2, Rogue2, Fighter 4, Centurion (PrC) 1
..and finally learns to read

After serving a couple years at the city of lights have soured him with its politics and high falutin ways, he heads west, encountering his fathers kin folk and finds religion. He returns to his roots and then chooses to follow a new path, gouging out his eye and becoming one of the Favored of Grummish...
BrB3, Rogue2, Fighter 4, Centurion (PrC) 4, FoG (PrC) 1

{hmm.. I will have to remember this one.. I kinda like the curmudgen!}

Anything wrong with Fred?
Besides the fact that I show him as a BrB who has never 'adventured' outside of the city?

Not all BrB have to be rustic club weilding, majic hating people living in hide armor...
Not all Ftr have to be pure classed.

====
Once upon a time there was an earlier edition in which fighters all had the 'class' of 'fighter'. This new edition you can have fighters of all different classes.. The mechanics should support the roleplaying, not the other way around.

If you want a game were stereotyping by class is the norm, great for you. Diversity is what keeps this world from being boring.
If you want to stretch the bounds of a character type.. I will gladly bend, twist, and mutilate the Core classes until they can mechanically resemble your character concept.



Oh.. I like the idea of spreading the 1st level skill boost out over 3 levels.. but don't think that it affects that much as long as the DM has oversight on the build.. asking questions like 'why aren't you taking any points in Sleight of Hand?, you are playing a Rogue aren't you?'

 

[Cabral]

Excuse me! Note my user name sir!

Fighter1 ... very different than Fighter20 ... at Fighter1 you're so full of promise ... so many classes to multiclass into.

I disagree with all due haste; the fighter class is not bland; it is the only class where you the player have to desighn it; there is no plan out there put in place by someone else you just follow blindly.

A fighter can be an archer, a knightly swordsman, a rapier weilding villian...anything you want him to be; because you got the feats.

Exactly. Fighters are a just-add-flavor class. No inherent flavor whatsoever

 

[ViciousPenguin]

Option 2: DM supervision. You're taking a level in Barbarian? Yeah, the fast movement is grea--DENIED! ...

That's the best suggestion I've seen yet.

Kudos Cabral.