D&D General D&D 3.5 - splatbook power creep or no?

[Maxperson]

Well, at the very least they're a dirty, granola-chewing hippie.

My mind did that thing where you see both ends of a word and it fills the rest in for you and initially read that as grandpa-chewing hippie.

 

[DeadlyUematsu]

A word of advice: I had a similar discussion with Maxperson in another thread and I realized I was wasting time when it became apparent that my experience meant squat to them.

 

[Mecheon]

I'm talking about class niches, not power levels. If you have a wizard and a cleric casting Knock, Find Traps, etc. instead of letting the rogue do it, they're being douches. Power level is a completely different issue and is only broken if you feel that it is.

I played a ton of fighters and rogues along side wizards, druids and clerics, and not once did I feel left out or useless. That sort of thing is entirely a creation of your(general you) own mind.

It is a thread about power creep, though. Power level absolutely is part of the issue at hand. Niche protection doesn't do anything with the fact that the power levels of just the PHB alone are completely off base.

The later books add power, sure, but its absolutely needed for most of the classes, just due to the massive gap.

 

[TwoSix]

My mind did that thing where you see both ends of a word and it fills the rest in for you and initially read that as grandpa-chewing hippie.

Chewing up grandpa is what a Druid has to do to get to 13th level, according to Gygax.

 

[Maxperson]

It is a thread about power creep, though. Power level absolutely is part of the issue at hand. Niche protection doesn't do anything with the fact that the power levels of just the PHB alone are completely off base.

The later books add power, sure, but its absolutely needed for most of the classes, just due to the massive gap.

Yeah. There was a niche tangent, though, and that's what this particular discussion was addressing.

 

[billd91]

If the default assumption of Dnd is that downtime is so incredibly precious that to allow players more than a few hours of it at a time is "breaking the game"....than why even include magic item creation in the first place? Either make it not cost time, or just remove it.

But it IS in the game, so the assumption is....players should get to use it. Not every moment of every day, but certainly enough to justify its inclusion.

Well, my take on this is that it shouldn't have been included in the game in that particular form. As I've said before, magic item creation and the magic item system in 3e was transformational to the D&D game and how it gets played at the table. Scrolls became cheap and easy to make, wands, staves, and potions went from being fairly quirky and limited in scope to being capable of casting anything, and other magic items became easy to create rather than than relying on a DM's whims and quests for oddball components. So it had a HUGE impact on optimization and the potential for spell casters to encroach on non-caster abilities extensively, consistently, and persistently - all for a bit of time, money, and a pittance of XPs spent in downtime.

If I ever went back to running 3e (unlikely considering 5e is my favorite edition of D&D to date), magic item creation is getting heavily restricted in scope.

 

[Umbran]

A word of advice: I had a similar discussion with Maxperson in another thread and I realized I was wasting time when it became apparent that my experience meant squat to them.

Mod Note:
And a similar word of advice for you - don't make discussions personal. Address the content of posts, not the person of the poster.

 

[DeadlyUematsu]

Ah, I guess I'll find a way to point out a recurrent problem then.

 

[Umbran]

Ah, I guess I'll find a way to point out a recurrent problem then.

Mod Note:
We'll take this to PM...

 

[Argyle King]

I'm talking about class niches, not power levels. If you have a wizard and a cleric casting Knock, Find Traps, etc. instead of letting the rogue do it, they're being douches. Power level is a completely different issue and is only broken if you feel that it is.

I played a ton of fighters and rogues along side wizards, druids and clerics, and not once did I feel left out or useless. That sort of thing is entirely a creation of your(general you) own mind.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I typically did play casters who had utility spells when playing 3.5. (I still do when I play D&D now.)

Seems odd to me that I would have the power of the universe at my fingertips and I would limit myself to direct damage, when I can do things like alter the fabricate of reality; control minds; change the shape of a battlefield; etc.

Though, I'm also the type of player who enjoyed playing a divination-focused sorcerer in 3.5. (I was asked by the DM if I would make a different character.)

So, I don't think it's an entirely unusual experience for a caster at a D&D table to do things other than toss fireballs.

Back when I was playing 3.5, I honestly wasn't even close the best player when it came to running a spellcaster. One of the other guys from that group -who was usually a wizard- would sometimes hold his turn so that other people would get more chance to actually play.

I don't disagree with you that there are ways to address casters in 3rd Edition. (I also think that a lot of problems often came from groups handwaving away certain rules.) But I do disagree that it is unusual for a caster to use utility spells, and I also don't think it is unusual for a 3.5 caster to be able to also function as another niche.

The Druid essentially gets a sidekick (animal companion) that can cover the same roll as a fighter as a class feature.


==If you don't feel like reading more, everything that follows is just extra detail that elaborates on what is stated above.==


In the last 3.5 game I played, I played a multiclass sorcerer/druid. I was playing with mostly newer players, so I saw it as an opportunity to try something different and give them a chance to shine more, while I played more of a support role (by using mainly utility spells, healing, etc).

Eventually, I took a PrC from a splat book that was intended for an arcane caster who was also had an animal companion from a different class. I can't remember the name of the PrC, but I do remember that it combined my familiar and animal companion into one creature that functioned as both and it leveled up my caster level in both classes. Even with taking what would normally be subpar caster options and trying to focus on being a supporting character, there were still times when I could cover the niches of other characters who were focused on their respective tasks. Eventually, my companion gained enough HD to be a huge size category wolf that was intelligent enough to take feats and be just as effective as a typical fighter or barbarian.

I enjoyed 3.5, and I had a lot of fun with that campaign. Even so, it was an interesting experience to realize that I was intentionally taking subpar options and still being one of the strongest characters in the party.