D&D and the rising pandemic

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Still gonna mask up for a while. Leading by example; keeping my paranoid Mom at ease. Etc.

Yep. Mask or no, I'm not going to be eating indoors in a restaurant any time soon. Or going to a movie theater, or getting on public transportation. Or even going to a crowded outdoor entertainment. I'm still going to wear a mask when I go to the grocery or other store, and I'll be keeping those trips to a minimum.
 

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Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
I* have eaten at restaurants, and but for one post-vaccination occasion, all of the restaurants seemed to be taking things seriously.

For instance, none of them allowed adjacent seating. Many had even removed tables to increase spacing. And- while ultimately, it may have been “pandemic theatre”- cleaning was vigorous.

In addition, the Indian buffet required the use of AND supplied masks & gloves.

Plus, I have been going right at opening for a lot of my visits. Risks are lower when you’re one of the only 4-5 customers in the place.



* all but a couple excursions were solo.
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
From a greedy standpoint I know I'd personally be a lot happier about everything if my child were one year older or if the vaccine was approved down to 11 instead of 12...

Ate at a restaurant in person (outside) two weeks ago for the first time in over a year. I thought everyone in the long-time lunch group had had both doses kick in, but one person had only had one so far.

Funeral this week, so was inside two funeral homes and some restaurants eating while on the road, and stayed in two different hotels. I think most folks had their two doses (all of the older ones did anyway). It was interesting to see how different states and hotels had different takes on masking, and that how the customers and staff acted had little to know connection to what the signs on the doors said. I can't imagine what the planning would have been like f the death (near 100 yo and about as peaceful as it can be) had been before vaccination had been wide open for almost two months.
 

That hasn't changed. If fully vaccinated, you are incredibly unlikely to get it from them after the encounter. If you do get it, it is even more unlikely that you'll end up in the hospital. And it is unlikely that you'll spread it to anyone else. Doubly so if they are also vaccinated.

We're still waiting on the science about that. In the meantime, I don't have to worry about getting sick from your hypothetical shmuck. But I do still need to be concerned about passing it from that schmuck to my unvaccinated children, my friend on chemotherapy, and anyone else who is medically prevented from taking the vaccine.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
We're still waiting on the science about that.

Insofar as published, peer reviewed studies, yes, we are still waiting. However, the CDC can, will, and does work off preliminary data as well.

The basic question at hand is this: in creation of the vaccines, the basic test of effectiveness was "prevent you from becoming ill", meaning, showing symptoms. It left open the question of whether a vaccinated person could be infected, but not be ill, and thus possibly spread the virus.

In early April, the CDC published a preliminary report, tracking health care workers, first responders, and other front line personnel.

"Among unvaccinated participants, 1.38 SARS-CoV-2 infections were confirmed by reverse transcription–polymerase chain reaction (RT-PCR) per 1,000 person-days. In contrast, among fully immunized (≥14 days after second dose) persons, 0.04 infections per 1,000 person-days were reported, and among partially immunized (≥14 days after first dose and before second dose) persons, 0.19 infections per 1,000 person-days were reported. Estimated mRNA vaccine effectiveness for prevention of infection, adjusted for study site, was 90% for full immunization and 80% for partial immunization. These findings indicate that authorized mRNA COVID-19 vaccines are effective for preventing SARS-CoV-2 infection, regardless of symptom status, among working-age adults in real-world conditions."

The results were simple - the vaccines are not just 90%+ effective at keeping you from getting ill, they are 90%+ effective at keeping you from getting infected at all. And if you are not infected at all, you cannot spread the virus.

It is now a month later, and as far as I can find, subsequent data has only supported this result. The data is still preliminary, because the rate of infection is terribly low, and in very technical statistics, that leads to a broad confidence interval around that 90%.

And, now here's a place where human understanding of risk typically fails us. Once you have a method that is highly effective as preventing infection/transmission, layering on more methods only adds marginal benefit.

If you have two, independent methods of prevention, that are each 50% effective, if you use them both, the result is about 75% effective, which seems like a good deal.

If you have two independent methods of prevention, one is 90% effective, and the other is 50% effective, the result is about 95% effective.

Now, let us apply what that effectiveness really means. A 90% effective vaccine does not mean it leaves you with a 10% chance of getting covid. It means your chance of getting covid is 90% less than if you were not vaccinated.

Broadly speaking, the chance of catching covid is on the order of 1% per exposure. A 90% effective prevention reduces that to 0.1% chance. A 95% effective prevention reduces that to 0.05% chance per exposure.

So, basically, adding the mask only drops the chance of transmission by five hundredths of a percent.

That's a small change in probability, down in the level of experimental error where it is apt to be wiped out by other factors, such as to be meaningless.

That is not to say you should not wear a mask. I support anyone who wants to wear a mask. I will be happy if my state retains its "masks must be worn indoors in public places" mandate. I'm going to continue avoiding certain venues, and wearing masks myself.
 

Insofar as published, peer reviewed studies, yes, we are still waiting.

Just so you are aware, your recomendations are the opposite of what my children's health care professional says on the matter:


"Does a vaccinated person present a risk to an unvaccinated family member in the same house?

Vaccinated people do not shed virus as a result of vaccination. Neither the mRNA nor the adenovirus vaccines are composed of live viruses, so there is no infectious virus to spread from a vaccinated person to someone else.

But we do not yet know if a vaccinated person who encounters the virus can still experience what is referred to as “asymptomatic infection.” An asymptomatic infection occurs when a person is exposed to the virus in the community and the virus can still replicate in their body, but they don’t have symptoms because their immune system stifles the infection as a result of vaccination. In this scenario, the person could potentially spread the virus without even knowing they are infected. While it is not anticipated that vaccinated individuals will be likely to spread the virus even if they experience asymptomatic infection, this has not yet been shown to be the case. Therefore, we need to practice caution until we know for certain.

Given that families and friends will not all be vaccinated yet, vaccinated individuals should continue to follow public health guidance when they are out in the community to decrease the chance of introducing the virus in the home through asymptomatic infection."

I understand that your conclusions are hopeful. It is highly likely that you will be proven correct some time next month, next week, or even tomorrow. But when I have to choose between preliminary data from some guy on the internet and the recomendations of my kid's doctor, I listen to the doctor.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
So, new guidance from the CDC, that folks who are vaccinated can for the most part go about their business unmasked, indoors and outdoors, with a small number of caveats.

And it looks like this guidance has given many people a yawning pit of fear in their guts. We think, "But... as a practical manner that means people who are not vaccinated can lie about it, and go unmasked! They'll spread the disease! We're hosed!"

Any time news gives you that yawning pit of fear, is the moment you should stop, breathe, and think.

Consider: Think about the kind of yob who would lie so they could go without a mask. This person... is a shmuck. These aren't people who have dutifully and effectively followed mask protocols so far, are they? No. They are people who have already been ignoring masking every chance they can get. They are the ones already spreading the disease, aren't they?

That would mean that this guidance really doesn't add appreciable risk. The number of folks who won't get vaccinated, but who do and will dutifully follow masking guidance is probably very small, and those would be the only added new risk.
If you go out into society you will be exposed.

If you're vaccinated you're relying on the vaccine to protect you.

If you're unvaccinated you really should never go inside any building except your own home. If you need to meet people, do it outdoors (and not in crowds). Don't shop, period.

My point is that nothing changes to any appreciable degree. The presence of "fake" unmasked people won't change this calculus.

If you're vaccinated you will still in the end rely on the vaccine to protect you, and if you're not you're still gambling your life.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
The problem is that before, if you were wearing a mask, and the infectious yob was also required to wear a mask, it was incredibly unlikely you would get it from them after an encounter. But now, you might still be wearing a mask, but the infectious yob won't be, so your protection is lessened just that little bit. And if you choose to listen to CDC's guidance and go out without a mask yourself, and encounter the equally maskless yob, you might find out you're one of the unlucky folks whose vaccination wasn't good enough.

Plus, anything that encourages the continued spread of the disease ups the chances of a new strain being bred that can get around the current vaccine.

Not really seeing the upside of this CDC guidance. We should all be wearing masks until community spread is no longer a danger.
Masks primary job is reducing the number of people YOU infect. Not help you avoid infection.

Since it's unreasonable to expect Average Joe to keep isolating even after getting vaccinated, the only reasonable conclusion that thosr unlucky few the vaccine can't help will probably get the disease.

In a country where the clear majority gets immunized you could hope the disease levels would sink to insignificant levels, but it is fairly clear the US isn't going to be one of those countries.

I guess I'm saying there's no point in maintaining your caution since in the end you either trust the vaccine to keep you safe or endure a semi-permanent isolation.

Not that I'm telling you how to react. Just saying that for most people, there likely is no practical alternative to re-entering society once vaccinated.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
I understand that your conclusions are hopeful. It is highly likely that you will be proven correct some time next month, next week, or even tomorrow. But when I have to choose between preliminary data from some guy on the internet and the recomendations of my kid's doctor, I listen to the doctor.

Dude. My "some guy on the internet" is the Center for Disease Control.

I am not recommending any particular action. I am explaining the guidance from the CDC, and why they give it, so that folks can make informed choices.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
And, here's an additional study from the CDC, which they just posted on the 14th. This seems to have been the basis for the new mask recommendations.

Relevant quote:
"Interim analyses indicated that the VE of a single dose (measured 14 days after the first dose through 6 days after the second dose) was 82% (95% confidence interval [CI] = 74%–87%), adjusted for age, race/ethnicity, and underlying medical conditions. The adjusted VE of 2 doses (measured ≥7 days after the second dose) was 94% (95% CI = 87%–97%)."

@Deset Gled - This information became available on the 14th. We would not expect individual health care providers and professionals to have even started reconsidering their recommendations yet. But then, we should hope and expect the CDC to be ahead of the folks doing the day-to-day care. It is kind of their job to be.

An overall review of this is available from CNN: What made CDC decide to say fully vaccinated people don't need masks?
 
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