D&D 5E D&D Beyond: Raven Queen

[Mouseferatu]

In the mythologies of multiple First Nations tribes, Raven is the creator deity and brought light into the darkness.

I don't mention that to counter any of your general points--honestly, I tend to forget the wereravens and talking ravens are even a part of Ravenloft, so I don't really have a horse in the race--just saying that there's some precedent for ravens being linked to light/the sun.

 

[Charlaquin]

So, again, my statement that ravens are crows was neither incorrect (as you initially claimed)

I don’t think I claimed you were wrong, and if I did it certainly wasn’t my initial claim. My initial response was to jokingly accuse you of anti-corvidism, and to indicate that I thought you were making a joke.

Sorry, I was the one who gave the initial correction, which I fully admit was in error. Under a particular usage of the word "crow," it is not technically inaccurate to say that ravens are crows. I would argue, however, that the usage of the word "crow" to refer to species that belong to the corvid family but whose common names don't include the word "crow" (such as corvus corvax, more commonly known as the common raven) is far from common.

It is fairly common to refer to corvidae as the "crow family." So to say, "ravens are part of the crow family" wouldn't come across as unusual in the way that saying, "ravens are crows" does. That's why I say it is pedantic to use the fact that the corvidae family is commonly called the "crow family" to argue that ravens are crows. Yes, ravens are part of the family commonly called "the crow family". No, people don't usually call ravens crows.

 

[Sunseeker]

Here's the thing a lot of Ravenloft fans don't like to remember/admit: when it comes to being a "dark, gothic horror settiong", the truth of it is? Ravenloft's not very good at it.

Don't get me wrong, it can do dark fantasy well, it can do horror fantasy well, and it can even do gothic fantasy, but its record at applying any of those is... spotty.

The entire setting evolved out of a module that was, to all practical effects, literally a D&D take on Castlevania. There's a reason the Castlevania 2 artwork is basically Ravenloft's box-art shrunk down and with Simon Belmont in the foreground. The crypt was full of awful puns and there all kinds of jokes at it.

And when it tried to go serious as a full-fledged campaign setting? Ooh, boy. You had the blatant rip-off domains like Lamordia, you had poorly designed adventures, you had characters like freaking Malignio (who is Evil Pinnochio), you had bungled backstories (Drakov is an evil, evil bastard who deserves punishment, but what the hell is "gothic" about his backstory)... yeah, frankly, it's a very hit and miss setting.

The Ravenkin? They are some of the least stupid ideas or implementations to make it into Ravenloft.

Oh no I totally agree. I've crossed out large swaths of material from the setting. Frankly Curse of Strahd is a fairly good rendition of what is really relevant to the material. I've put a much tighter focus on classical gothic, horror and dark fantasy elements. There is fundamentally "stuff that matters" and "stuff that doesn't" and all of that second group has gone in the garbage bin. Elements like the various Darkrealms being "gilded cages" for the Darklords while the Dark Powers do...whatever it is they do (which is now fundamentally a very minor element). Anything that plays close to the source literature I've made an effort to make the parallels stronger. Players are by-and-large so genre savvy to an that attempting to make it "Dracula but not really." is just a waste of time.

It's why I haven't run it yet. It's a slow process and the more I work through it the more I have to gut. Which is annoying. I'm just dealing with the setting's religions at the moment which is why I'm on a kick about ravenkin. Cutting out some things is easy, but the ravenkin are annoyingly interconnected to the story.

 

[Sunseeker]

In the mythologies of multiple First Nations tribes, Raven is the creator deity and brought light into the darkness.

I don't mention that to counter any of your general points--honestly, I tend to forget the wereravens and talking ravens are even a part of Ravenloft, so I don't really have a horse in the race--just saying that there's some precedent for ravens being linked to light/the sun.

Actually, thank you. I am not familiar with the mythologies of the First Nations (other than the fact that there are a lot of them). But I have been thinking of taking the Vistani in a much more First Nations direction than the classic (and rather racist) Romanies tropes. There's some scary stuff in First Nation mythology but frustratingly little written on it. I can't sleep anyway...might as well go do some studying.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Actually, thank you. I am not familiar with the mythologies of the First Nations (other than the fact that there are a lot of them). But I have been thinking of taking the Vistani in a much more First Nations direction than the classic (and rather racist) Romanies tropes. There's some scary stuff in First Nation mythology but frustratingly little written on it. I can't sleep anyway...might as well go do some studying.

You're quite welcome. Truth be told, I don't know a lot about those mythologies myself. (And I need to fix that.) I only happen to know this because I was recently researching real-world Raven myths for a warlock character that I wound up not even playing.

 

[Azzy]

You're quite welcome. Truth be told, I don't know a lot about those mythologies myself. (And I need to fix that.)

I need to fix that for myself, too—especially given that I have a Huron (Wyandot) great-something grandmother and know jack-all about her culture.

I only happen to know this because I was recently researching real-world Raven myths for a warlock character that I wound up not even playing.

Sounds like something I would do.

 

[Parmandur]

Honestly I thought I had read somewhere that The Raven Queen was basically Wee Jas put through the "Ultimate Marvel"-type filter that the rest of D&D was put through for 4e. I can't find the source now, but I was sure there was an interview or something where someone copped to Wee Jas as at least a major influence on the Raven Queen for 4e.

Pretty sure this is stated explicitly in the 5E DMG, where the Nentir Vale pantheon is used as an example for Homebrewing a pantheon.

 

[Parmandur]

Here's the thing a lot of Ravenloft fans don't like to remember/admit: when it comes to being a "dark, gothic horror settiong", the truth of it is? Ravenloft's not very good at it.

Don't get me wrong, it can do dark fantasy well, it can do horror fantasy well, and it can even do gothic fantasy, but its record at applying any of those is... spotty.

The entire setting evolved out of a module that was, to all practical effects, literally a D&D take on Castlevania. There's a reason the Castlevania 2 artwork is basically Ravenloft's box-art shrunk down and with Simon Belmont in the foreground. The crypt was full of awful puns and there all kinds of jokes at it.

And when it tried to go serious as a full-fledged campaign setting? Ooh, boy. You had the blatant rip-off domains like Lamordia, you had poorly designed adventures, you had characters like freaking Malignio (who is Evil Pinnochio), you had bungled backstories (Drakov is an evil, evil bastard who deserves punishment, but what the hell is "gothic" about his backstory)... yeah, frankly, it's a very hit and miss setting.

The Ravenkin? They are some of the least stupid ideas or implementations to make it into Ravenloft.

Eerrrrrm, Castlevania is a video game take on a Ravenloft, sequentially speaking, but yeah, Hickman was going for Dark Shadows not Interview with a Vampire.

 

[Parmandur]

So, in Latin, Corvus means both Raven and Crow. Just throwing that out there.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I always thought Ravenloft was more Hammer Horror than gothic horror, and unless the players are willing to abandon their genre savviness rapidly turned into Scooby Doo.

To genuinely disturb my players I slip in little events that they don't understand into a conventional fantasy storyline.

But how did this get from the Raven Queen to Ravenloft? The Raven Queen is one of the few things I quite like about 4e, as it seems to represent a shift in zeitgeist away from Tolkien to something more like Grimm's Fairy Tales.