D&D blog: goblin care only about your axe

[Crazy Jerome]

I wouldn't enjoy that either... That's why we roleplay it out.

"Ok, you see the goblin coming down the hallway."
"How far is he?"
"About 60', just at the edge of the dimness of your torchlight. He sees you and starts reaching for his club."
"Great. My movement is 20', but if I charge I can move 60'. Is there anything that might hamper my movement in the hallway? Like, rough terrain or something?"
"Nope. Just a dungeon corridor with flagstones for flooring."
"Great. I charge."

I mean, where in that is the DM fiat? Nowhere. It's the player's prerogative to use questions to clarify the environment. The same must occur with grids... "What's the wavy line you drew? It's red is that a wall of fire?" "Oh, no, that's just a curtain."

The DM's answers establish facts, that we can make decisions based upon.

Sure, if you're playing with a 5 year old, those facts might change randomly. But, we're like, adults right?

Good example. As I've said before when asked about gridless 4E, the trick is that you play with the grid, but you play with the mindset that you've illustrated above. The grid is merely an aid to the DM and players to convey the fictional information. Once you play that way for awhile on a grid (in a given system) and internalize it, it is not terribly difficult to translate that into gridless play. (Whether a given group prefers to stick with the grid or not becomes a matter of taste and the relative complexity of the encounter.)

I believe that an agnostic system would work much the same way, but would not require you to first play on the grid to internalize it.

 

[steeldragons]

But, we're like, adults right?

Well...that's a bit of an assumption...one I'd be happy to make with you!...but an assumption, nonetheless.

 

[Doug McCrae]

We have played 3e fairly successfully in TotM style with the GM determining flanking, AoO, range and the like as and when necessary. I'd prefer it if D&DNext was less reliant on the grid than 3e. In fact I'd prefer if it was less reliant on 'spatial precision' than any prior edition of D&D.

I feel TotM works best if there are no precise ranges, and location is, quite deliberately, never pinned down. Combat would be pretty abstract, something like AD&D's one minute rounds, but moreso. However this would mean setting aside that great D&D shibboleth, the square grid map. The battlefield could be divided into one or more melees, perhaps requiring a move action or two to move between them, with ranged combatants in their own separate zones.

Spells don't have ranges, characters don't have movement rates, rounds don't have a set length, dungeons don't have scale maps.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

It's positive stuff, but given how minis-centric every WotC edition has been, I'm reluctant to shout praise until I see how it works in practice at my tables.

You're forgetting one of the main reasons they're making grid-optional: With increasing costs, selling minis is now a questionable exercise. In 3e and early 4e days, selling minis was a sound business plan (therefore making the game "need" minis was a sound business plan).

Not so anymore. Oh don't get me wrong, they will try their best to still sell minis (as will other parties) but they have to work under the assumption that making the game "require" minis means they can only sell it to those willing to buy said minis (or who already have them, at which point WotC doesn't care one-way or the other if the game needs minis for those people.)

 

[MacMathan]

Have you seen Old School Hack's system of arenas for fights? It sounds similar to what you are describing?

We have played 3e fairly successfully in TotM style with the GM determining flanking, AoO, range and the like as and when necessary. I'd prefer it if D&DNext was less reliant on the grid than 3e. In fact I'd prefer if it was less reliant on 'spatial precision' than any prior edition of D&D.

I feel TotM works best if there are no precise ranges, and location is, quite deliberately, never pinned down. Combat would be pretty abstract, something like AD&D's one minute rounds, but moreso. However this would mean setting aside that great D&D shibboleth, the square grid map. The battlefield could be divided into one or more melees, perhaps requiring a move action or two to move between them, with ranged combatants in their own separate zones.

Spells don't have ranges, characters don't have movement rates, rounds don't have a set length, dungeons don't have scale maps.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

I have recently been messing around with zone combat in 4e as a means to handle combat, and it is simple to bring in 4e powers into totm... move action to gain combat advantage emulate flanking. With forced movement you can push into danger or into a tactically unsound position by using a Terrain power or granting a bonus to hit equal to the numeric of squares pushed, but only to the next attack. Pushing an ally can grant a similar bonus to defenses until the allies next turn or they get moved again.

I think that an agnostic system is very doable and I look forward to it!

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

 

[BobTheNob]

Yes, and precision makes all the difference. In a game where you have a "Damage: 2[W]" power, and a power that says "Damage: 1[W] + push target 2 squares", which one would you pick? In a game that uses no grids, the second power is less useful, because it relies solely on the subjectivity of the DM to decide it's utility, and the ability of the other players to remember to take advantage of it. If there's a grid and minis, the rogue sees this and says, "ooh, now I'm flanking that foe" and uses his sneak attack. With no grid, the DM:

1) has to remind the rogue he's in flank position
2) has to remember who else is now close to the pushed foe, enemies and foes alike
3) what effects this has on the combat.

This is bang on the issue with trying to run the game in "dual mode". Some things such as flanking under a grid system fall apart once you try to abstract things, and powers designed to take advantage of grid system loose there sting.

Im not encouraged by this talk of dual systems. There is so many pitfalls with trying to keep everyone happy. The thing Im looking for is Totm with positioning, but I really dont think Im going to get that. The feeling I get is its going to be grid with the option to Totm for simple scenarios, and after following 4e grid exactly by the rules I realize now that thats exactly what I dont want.

Ah well, thats what you get for having fringe preferences I guess. I have my houserule pen ready!

 

[BobTheNob]

I have recently been messing around with zone combat in 4e as a means to handle combat, and it is simple to bring in 4e powers into totm... move action to gain combat advantage emulate flanking. With forced movement you can push into danger or into a tactically unsound position by using a Terrain power or granting a bonus to hit equal to the numeric of squares pushed, but only to the next attack. Pushing an ally can grant a similar bonus to defenses until the allies next turn or they get moved again.

I think that an agnostic system is very doable and I look forward to it!

Realtive to last post, I said Totm + Positioning = zone system.

Zone system is what Im after. Positioning and tactics with simplicity and speed.

 

[Libramarian]

2 things concern me:

- no mention of modules in an article about a very obviously modular subject -- probably best evidence yet that the modular thing was just a crock to keep the community together until the playtest

- the phrase "conflict resolution". I don't want to be wondering whether or not to bring out the grid for a social encounter

 

[howandwhy99]

I disagree that minis are only for combat. We use minis (& other stuff actually) to represent the spatial positioning of the characters. We draw stuff on the battle mat that is important to be there too.

Marching order (the configuration) means how the PCs are set up, if they are ever ambushed. It means the guy in front saves or falls into a pit and not 2 guys walking side by side. It can represent the angle and how high up the parapet is before you throw the grappling hook.

I find minis useful in all sorts of situations outside of combat. They are every bit as useful as a good whiteboard. I hope they remember to include these for non-combat events and to not a flag to players that a battle will occur simply from setting out minis.