D&D blog: goblin care only about your axe

[grimslade]

I think this is heading back to 3.x style power descriptions. The square will be gone as a measurement. 5' will be the new base description again. Instead of modular tactical play as an add-on, tactical play will default to interesting powers and abilities beyond basic attack. Cones come back blast and burst fade away.
I liked the wide variety of powers 4e brought about, movement and environment became very important within the rules. The whole reliance on the grid and squares and 5' square increments left the whole dynamic fights pixelated and artificial to me. The chessboard can come back pretty easily. I only worry for people who want a more abstract combat resolution or a simpler combat will be unable to have it. The 'Tide of Iron' style of attack will be 'core'.

 

[Libramarian]

I wouldn't enjoy that either... That's why we roleplay it out.

"Ok, you see the goblin coming down the hallway."
"How far is he?"
"About 60', just at the edge of the dimness of your torchlight. He sees you and starts reaching for his club."
"Great. My movement is 20', but if I charge I can move 60'. Is there anything that might hamper my movement in the hallway? Like, rough terrain or something?"
"Nope. Just a dungeon corridor with flagstones for flooring."
"Great. I charge."

I mean, where in that is the DM fiat? Nowhere. It's the player's prerogative to use questions to clarify the environment. The same must occur with grids... "What's the wavy line you drew? It's red is that a wall of fire?" "Oh, no, that's just a curtain."

The DM's answers establish facts, that we can make decisions based upon.

Sure, if you're playing with a 5 year old, those facts might change randomly. But, we're like, adults right?

Yes, this.

Unfortunately, dkyle's concerns are not entirely unreasonable, because there are many DMs who think that to preserve immersion they have to avoid using precise language in their descriptions.

Like this comment on the article:

There is a time and place for complex tactics, but the player who looks at me and asks if he can drop a fireball on the opponents without harming any allies will sometimes have to decide whether "It will be a near thing... Rogar could potentially get singed" means that it's worth the risk. He might instead try shouting "fire in the hole" at Rogar and hold an action to see if the fighter backs off a few feet first. The point is, the wizard isn't out there with a tape measure, and my player is required to look at the scene through his character's eyes. I - and my players - really enjoy this level of immersion.
orryn_emrys

I think using precise distances is actually MORE immersive, unless you're roleplaying Mr. Magoo. I look at it as compensating for the extra fuzziness introduced by processing the information by verbal description rather than visually and kinesthetically.

So we need to distinguish between TotM combat where the DM is willing to give the players really the same sort of information as they get in gridded combat, just without square-counting and corner-cutting when the precision isn't important, and TotM combat where the DM is trying to describe everything "subjectively".

 

[Henry]

I wouldn't enjoy that either... That's why we roleplay it out.

"Ok, you see the goblin coming down the hallway."
"How far is he?"
"About 60', just at the edge of the dimness of your torchlight. He sees you and starts reaching for his club."
"Great. My movement is 20', but if I charge I can move 60'. Is there anything that might hamper my movement in the hallway? Like, rough terrain or something?"
"Nope. Just a dungeon corridor with flagstones for flooring."
"Great. I charge."

If it's one PC and a goblin in a narrow hallway, it's easy to figure -- now, what about five or six goblins? Replace the goblins with chokers -- how many op-attacks are you exposing yourself to in that charge? Is the fountain with the weird energy radiating from it near enough to affect you? Which goblins are near you, and which are near your friend fighting on the bridge over the lava? Would tide of iron knock one off, or is the bridge too wide for that? Combats can easily get too unwieldy for Mental Theater except for the most skilled DMs -- and the more notes he or she takes, they might as well just bring out the grid. DMs of various skill levels do exist, and we can't make the assumption all DMs are as experienced as those of us playing for several years.

 

[Lanefan]

[MENTION=3192]howandwhy99[/MENTION] makes some excellent points in post 40.

I'll just add: we've used minis on a map since 1981 but have never used a formal grid system a la 4e, and probably never will. The minis show who is where in various situations (marching, camping, exploring a room, etc.) and I can quickly eyeball it to see - for example - who's in the fireball's area of effect. And if I need more precise measurements, well, that's what string is for...

As for grid-based effects like knockback, why does the distance moved always have to be a multiple of 5'? Why can't I say instead "if I hit I'll try to push him back a few feet; just far enough so the Thief can sneak past behind me, then I'll hold the corner", whether using a grid or not?

I've also never bought into the idea that each person takes up exactly one 5x5' square area. In 1e three Human-size creatures can fight side by side in a 10' passage if they squish a bit, and if one is Hobbit-size there's no problem at all.

Lan-"I cannot begin to imagine playing something as tactical as 4e without a grid"-efan

 

[Stormonu]

I wonder if you could have powers with duality built in:

Tide of Iron:
Do some damage
Grid: strength check pushes some number of squares
Totm: strength check against DC determined by DM puts enemy in hazard/next to ally/against a wall/etc.

I'd like to see it simplified to something like "2[w] damage + positional advantage". On the grid, positional advantage is a push, pull X squares based on level (say 1 square per 4 levels). In TotM, it's a reminder you move the opponent if there's some advantage to it, otherwise it just gives a +2 (advantage) to someone's next attack.

 

[Ratskinner]

I've heard about Zone-combat?

Yes, and personally, I think its the perfect middle ground for D&DN. Zones are easy to drop into TotM (so easy that it happens often without prompting), and Zone-friendly powers can easily be translated to grid powers. I kinda wish/hope the designers played FATE along with every edition of D&D.

 

[Ratskinner]

Like this comment on the article:
I think using precise distances is actually MORE immersive, unless you're roleplaying Mr. Magoo. I look at it as compensating for the extra fuzziness introduced by processing the information by verbal description rather than visually and kinesthetically.

Fair point, but humans are notably bad at judging distance and size by eyeball. Most of the fiction in-genre is notably lax about such detail, as well, AFAICT.

So we need to distinguish between TotM combat where the DM is willing to give the players really the same sort of information as they get in gridded combat, just without square-counting and corner-cutting when the precision isn't important, and TotM combat where the DM is trying to describe everything "subjectively".

I think the real issue is leeway or slack. I know/knew some DMs who use TotM as a way to screw the players "You didn't say you were leaving enough room..." and others who were perhaps a little too easy "Sure, you can fit that fireball in there...". Both lead to a certain type of feel, and while I tend to fall into the second camp, there's a legitimate "gritty" type of play fostered by the first.

 

[erleni]

I like that they're not choosing a "winning team." I prefer abstract combat, but I certainly don't want to rule out minis fiends.

Hey, we are not demons, even if we don't agree with you.

 

[Bluenose]

Yes, and personally, I think its the perfect middle ground for D&DN. Zones are easy to drop into TotM (so easy that it happens often without prompting), and Zone-friendly powers can easily be translated to grid powers. I kinda wish/hope the designers played FATE along with every edition of D&D.

The approaches in Warhammer FRP 3e and The One Ring aren't the same as FATE, but they would be another possible approach.

I think they should go back to measuring in inches, anyway.

 

[erleni]

No. It's not. It's a matter of what fictional facts we've established. If I tell the DM, "I move to within 50' if the goblin."

That is a tactical move, and now a fictional fact. The DM can't suddenly change that.



Again. Wrong. It's up to, "Did you describe yourself getting in position to push the goblin into the acid slime? Yes? Ok you do if you hit. No? Then describe how you set that up."



I wouldn't enjoy that either... That's why we roleplay it out.

"Ok, you see the goblin coming down the hallway."
"How far is he?"
"About 60', just at the edge of the dimness of your torchlight. He sees you and starts reaching for his club."
"Great. My movement is 20', but if I charge I can move 60'. Is there anything that might hamper my movement in the hallway? Like, rough terrain or something?"
"Nope. Just a dungeon corridor with flagstones for flooring."
"Great. I charge."

I mean, where in that is the DM fiat? Nowhere. It's the player's prerogative to use questions to clarify the environment. The same must occur with grids... "What's the wavy line you drew? It's red is that a wall of fire?" "Oh, no, that's just a curtain."

The DM's answers establish facts, that we can make decisions based upon.

Sure, if you're playing with a 5 year old, those facts might change randomly. But, we're like, adults right?

For simple fights like this one I agree with you. An assassin doesn't need a grid to kill a single sentry.
But what about a big fight with 5-6 pcs, a boss, two or three other monsters plus a handful of minions/lackeys. When my fighter moves do I have to ask where I stand compared to each monster/PC to avoid getting whacked as soon as it's the monster(s) turn to act.
And are we sure that the mental map of the DM is ok? Maybe I wanted to get close to that goblin, but not so close to the ogre over there...
As a DM for 50% of my playing time I love grids. They save time by avoiding a lot of unnecessary questions and preserve a fairness that as a DM I'm not sure I can maintain in complicated fights.