D&D blog: goblin care only about your axe

I'm in the camp of liking maps for some encounters at ToM for others. I agree that ToM can have it's problems. I've definitely known encounters where my mental picture of the encounter turns out to be weirdly different from the DM's -- rarely in a way that makes the encounter better. But I've also known encounters where 15 minutes goes by for the DM to carefully draw a map and lay out minis for an encounter that has maybe 5 minutes of interesting tension.

For what it's worth, I think my favorite system is the not-really-to-scale sketch map combined with "say yes" that allows the players to get a rough sense of the tactical layout from the map, but still gives the DM the flexibility to allow plausible PC tricks to work without having to count squares.

-KS
 

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In D&D, typically, yes pushing out of the way isn't much. In reality--and a not inconsiderable amount of fantasy fiction, such as Conan--it is more. So now suppose for a moment that you can change that facet of D&D to conform more to the source material? What implications does that have?

OK, then what should it mean?

If it's to get breathing room to get recentered and improve your defenses, then it isn't really a forced movement ability any more. It's a "get recentered" ability.

You're conflating very different mechanics. An ability that lets you push an enemy into a pool of acid is very different from an ability that lets you improve your defenses.

The latter is grid agnostic, yes, but only if there's no actual forced movement involved. If there's also a "push into something bad" component, then there's a big difference in how it functions on the grid, and off.
 

A thought occurred to me, what will be the standard for whatever the public outreach version of Encounters etc that accompanies 5e?
 

Also, I saw this article linked from RPG.net: Grids Again | Lizard's Gaming and Geekery Site

It very effectively expresses much of my thought process on grids, vs. gridless.

That's a fascinating article. I do think the author is a little off base in his explanation of why gridless players find the grid to be anti-immersive (not surprising, since he prefers the grid). For me, the anti-immersiveness of the grid comes from the focus on physical map and minis rather than on my imagination. When playing gridless, I'm not spending any brainpower on processing data coming in through my eyes, which means everything is available to refine and flesh out the image in my head.

In general, though, he does an excellent job of describing the differences between gridded and gridless play. I agree that there is a lot of DM fiat involved in traditional gridless/ToM, and that a "zone" system, while intriguing, is unlikely to make the cut as part of the core. (If it does show up, it will likely be as informal guidelines.) I don't think that's a bad thing, since I regard DM fiat as a perfectly legitimate part of the game.

One thing I do wonder is what happens if you play with minis and detailed map but no grid. Instead of a battlemat divided into squares or hexes, just plunk down a whiteboard, draw the terrain, and put your minis down. Tell the players to eyeball distances and don't get too hung up on it; if it looks to you like your fireball can hit those five goblins, then that's what it does. (The DM retains the right to call shenanigans if someone is blatantly abusing this discretion.) For ToM fans, how much brainspace is freed up by not counting squares? For grid fans, how much precision is lost?
 
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One thing I do wonder is what happens if you play with minis and detailed map but no grid. Instead of a battlemat divided into squares or hexes, just plunk down a whiteboard, draw the terrain, and put your minis down. Tell the players to eyeball distances and don't get too hung up on it; if it looks to you like your fireball can hit those five goblins, then that's what it does. (The DM retains the right to call shenanigans if someone is blatantly abusing this discretion.) For ToM fans, how much brainspace is freed up by not counting squares? For grid fans, how much precision is lost?

You could just as easily use measuring tape or other tools adapted to a gridless map. Many war games like Warmachine use maps without grids and do quite fine.
 


You could just as easily use measuring tape or other tools adapted to a gridless map. Many war games like Warmachine use maps without grids and do quite fine.

Well, that sort of defeats the point. The idea is to take away the time spent measuring and calculating distances. Whether that time is spent counting off squares or using a measuring tape, it's still time and brainpower focused on the physical model of the scene rather than the scene itself.
 

Well, that sort of defeats the point. The idea is to take away the time spent measuring and calculating distances. Whether that time is spent counting off squares or using a measuring tape, it's still time and brainpower focused on the physical model of the scene rather than the scene itself.

Warhammer has a limit on how many measurements you can make and when, and 4E at least has very few ranges to work with to begin with. I have difficulty accepting the idea that people have so little brainpower that this is an issue.
 

That's a fascinating article. I do think the author is a little off base in his explanation of why gridless players find the grid to be anti-immersive (not surprising, since he prefers the grid). For me, the anti-immersiveness of the grid comes from the focus on physical map and minis rather than on my imagination. When playing gridless, I'm not spending any brainpower on processing data coming in through my eyes, which means everything is available to refine and flesh out the image in my head.

I think there's basically two groups that prefer gridless combat:

The indie-RPG, narrative-focused RPG players, who would rather consider the narrative implications of combat, rather than the details, and are comfortable with an abstract world from which things can be instantiated via player narrative control. That's what the article focuses on.

Which, I agree, is a little off base, because when it comes to 5E, it's the old-school DnD players that are at issue. And I think, for the most part, they do want detailed, non-abstract combat, and want a concrete world, not one which players have metagame narrative control over. It's just that old-school D&D players are very comfortable with relying on the DM to arbitrate and decide on the fly. Moreso than players that favor the grid, I think.

But the description of why he likes grids, and why they make the game more immersive for him, is completely in line with my point of view. It's like he read my mind and wrote want I've trying to say...

I don't think that's a bad thing, since I regard DM fiat as a perfectly legitimate part of the game.

I would say that DM fiat is a perfectly legitimate part of roleplaying. To me, DM fiat is not part of the game. A game operates on mechanics, and DM fiat is a lack of mechanics. Basically, I want important things to be determined by the outcome of a game that represents the world, not by a DM's whims. It feels more real and immersive to me that way.

One thing I do wonder is what happens if you play with minis and detailed map but no grid. Instead of a battlemat divided into squares or hexes, just plunk down a whiteboard, draw the terrain, and put your minis down. Tell the players to eyeball distances and don't get too hung up on it; if it looks to you like your fireball can hit those five goblins, then that's what it does. (The DM retains the right to call shenanigans if someone is blatantly abusing this discretion.) For ToM fans, how much brainspace is freed up by not counting squares? For grid fans, how much precision is lost?

Yeah, my group has done stuff like that quite a bit, in other systems. I think it works fine in systems written with concrete units in mind, but not much that truly depends on exact positioning, like early editions of D&D. But I don't think 4E would work very well that way, at least not the way I've played it. There's still be need for adjudication practically every round.


Seems to me that most of that article is directed at mapped vs. unmapped, rather than gridded vs. gridless. I don't think the majority of TotM folks work totally without maps or references of some kind. (I know I rarely did.)

Maps and references that describe the environment, or maps and references that are also marked and updated during combat to track positioning and movement?

For the former, I don't think the article assumes those away. If it's just DM notes, everything still applies.

For the latter, the combat isn't strictly TotM any more, and starts resembling grid-based combat more.
 
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Because unless the DM is actually tracking the combat on a mental grid (unlikely), the tactical situation is more a matter of DM fiat and whims, than mechanics.

What that all boils down to is "may I push the goblin into the acid slime?", and the DM deciding "yes or no". I do not find that style of RPG very satisfying. The higher the stakes that rest on such non-mechanical elements, the more dissatisfied I am. And combat tends to be pretty high stakes.

If my character dies because I couldn't push the goblin in the acid, because he was 15' away (as a result of previous, mechanically well defined actions) and I could only push 10', then fair enough. That's how it played out. If my character dies because the DM handwaved and decided that I couldn't push the goblin in the acid, then ultimately it was a DM whim that killed my character, not a real consequence of my own actions, and the mechanics of the world I'm playing in. I would not enjoy that.

And its a damn shame when every something happens to anyone that isn't a real consequence of their own actions.

A lack of randomness and arbitrary consequences in a campaign violates my SOD. Won't you take pity on the poor SODs?
 

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