D&D blog: goblin care only about your axe

[Lanefan]

Did you read about how the gigantic size of 4E cleric late-game turn undead was because they failed to realize that game tables don't get larger as you hit epic tier?

That's amusing, in a face-meets-palm kind of way.

Of course, it's also easily fixed: tables might not get larger but the map scale can certainly get smaller...10' squares instead of 5', anyone?

Our standard is 10' squares but we often draw things out using 20' squares or 30' or 50' or whatever makes sense for what we need to show. At that point the minis becomes more of a vague representation of where you are, but it still works fine.

Lan-"these thoughts, however, rather negate the use of published battlemats"-efan

 

[Incenjucar]

I think in general there's a serious need to developing easy ways to deal with larger-scale situations, especially 3D stuff. Even with a giant table you have the issue of extreme-range combat on flying mounts over water with an island in the middle.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I don't think you're totally wrong, but I also don't think it's JUST a marketing decision.

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that it was ONLY a marketing decision. You have to assume that there are at least a few of the actual designers that prefer TotM. Heck, perhaps it was a call by the suits that made minis so prevalent in the first place.

Either way, it can only be a good thing to have the game support both grid and TotM (and all variants thereof)!

Personally I can't wait to do both.

 

[Ratskinner]

I think in general there's a serious need to developing easy ways to deal with larger-scale situations, especially 3D stuff. Even with a giant table you have the issue of extreme-range combat on flying mounts over water with an island in the middle.

That's a very good point. D&D has recently developed a bit of an issue with that kind of thing. I think the last time I tried anything in that vein was 3e...the last time I though it worked well was in 2e.

 

[Ratskinner]

Absolutely have abstract ToM combat rules. But, also just as absolutely, make bloody damn sure that DM's have been coached on how to use the darn system.

Missed this yesterday, but totally agree.

 

[Hussar]

That's an interesting point. The 1 inch scale of D&D (whether 5 feet, or 10 feet) works great for some things, not so much for others. The 1"=30 feet scale might not be a bad scale to bring back for things like vehicle combat (ship vs ship comes to my mind) or larger scale encounters (not truly army sized, but, say 50-200 combatants - something that's perfectly reasonable to crop up in a lot of games).

Just spitballing here, not making any real value judgements. But, I could really see several scaling modules being very useful. ToM style for the stuff where positioning is less important, full blown 3e or 4e scale for more complex encounters, larger scale with or without grid for longer ranged encounters.

Might also tie in with differing time scales for effects as well. Go back to the idea that you have some actions that take rounds and some that take turns (10 minutes). Again, for something like ship to ship combat, 6 second rounds don't make a lick of sense, and even 1 minute rounds are too fine grained. Same goes for something like a siege scenario (even if it's just a half a hundred guys attacking a small tower guarded by 20 guys) where there should be lots of "standing around" time.

 

[Lanefan]

That's an interesting point. The 1 inch scale of D&D (whether 5 feet, or 10 feet) works great for some things, not so much for others. The 1"=30 feet scale might not be a bad scale to bring back for things like vehicle combat (ship vs ship comes to my mind) or larger scale encounters (not truly army sized, but, say 50-200 combatants - something that's perfectly reasonable to crop up in a lot of games).

Mounted chase scenes and-or any combat where all participants are flying can also make use of this.

This is one where a looser rule set works better, as all you have to do is change the map scale and pretty much wing the rest. But converting a full-on grid-and-minis system to a different scale kinda needs...

Just spitballing here, not making any real value judgements. But, I could really see several scaling modules being very useful. ToM style for the stuff where positioning is less important, full blown 3e or 4e scale for more complex encounters, larger scale with or without grid for longer ranged encounters.

...this. And as each of those modules would likely be quite complex, I see a splat book here.

Might also tie in with differing time scales for effects as well. Go back to the idea that you have some actions that take rounds and some that take turns (10 minutes). Again, for something like ship to ship combat, 6 second rounds don't make a lick of sense, and even 1 minute rounds are too fine grained. Same goes for something like a siege scenario (even if it's just a half a hundred guys attacking a small tower guarded by 20 guys) where there should be lots of "standing around" time.

Underwater combat is another case where a longer round makes sense; side effect is creatures native to underwater would (and should) gain a significant speed advantage - they use normal rounds, where us clumsy air-breathers use slowed rounds.

I think in general there's a serious need to developing easy ways to deal with larger-scale situations, especially 3D stuff. Even with a giant table you have the issue of extreme-range combat on flying mounts over water with an island in the middle.

Now this is an even messier example where you could in fact have several different things all going on at once, each potentially interacting with the others at various times and each using its own scale and timing set. Think about it - how in the nine hells would you DM this scenario:

The PCs have set up a co-ordinated raid on a small island known to be a pirate base. They realize the pirates are allied with a couple of dragons and have brought along some aerial support, and the local navy has sent a few ships along for support and transport. The dragons return just as the ambush is launched, meanwhile a pirate ship tries to escape, producing this:

- a conventional D&D combat happens on the island, an away team of PCs is taking on the pirates who didn't get on the escape ship; but it's a rolling brawl with people running and chasing and hiding all over the place then reappearing at opportune moments;
- at the same time two PCs on flying mounts are engaging the dragons in an aerial combat above and around the island;
- meanwhile the rest of the PCs are on one of the navy ships and are engaging the fleeing pirate vessel.

Spells (and arrows) from the island might interfere with the aerial battle and-or with the ships;
Dragon breath etc. from the air might interfere with the ground battle and-or with the ships;
Artillery from the ships might interfere with the ground battle and-or the battle in the air;
The winner(s) of any battle can interfere with any battles remaining.

Design a system that can handle this (bonus if it also resolves the scenario in under two hours) and you have a winnah.

Lan-"I'm tempted to try and set up a scenario like this just to try it"-efan

 

[Blackwarder]

Having slept about it for a couple of days and after our last game session (I hate lizards!!!!) I came to the conclusion that my preferred way of dealing with combat would be loose grid positions just to show where everyone is and a set of rules for non grid combat.

I wouldn't mind buying a tactical combat module book with more 4e kind of rules (in fact I'll prefer buying it).

Warder

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Think about it - how in the nine hells would you DM this scenario:

The PCs have set up a co-ordinated raid on a small island known to be a pirate base. They realize the pirates are allied with a couple of dragons and have brought along some aerial support, and the local navy has sent a few ships along for support and transport. The dragons return just as the ambush is launched, meanwhile a pirate ship tries to escape, producing this:

- a conventional D&D combat happens on the island, an away team of PCs is taking on the pirates who didn't get on the escape ship; but it's a rolling brawl with people running and chasing and hiding all over the place then reappearing at opportune moments;
- at the same time two PCs on flying mounts are engaging the dragons in an aerial combat above and around the island;
- meanwhile the rest of the PCs are on one of the navy ships and are engaging the fleeing pirate vessel.

Spells (and arrows) from the island might interfere with the aerial battle and-or with the ships;
Dragon breath etc. from the air might interfere with the ground battle and-or with the ships;
Artillery from the ships might interfere with the ground battle and-or the battle in the air;
The winner(s) of any battle can interfere with any battles remaining.

Design a system that can handle this (bonus if it also resolves the scenario in under two hours) and you have a winnah.

Lan-"I'm tempted to try and set up a scenario like this just to try it"-efan

Zone combat mixed with grids... have a map of the island and maps of the ships. Then rings of zones extending out from the island.
Each gridded map is treated as a zone itself ... or maybe has some extra zones in it for beach, forest, etc...

Definately doable in under two hours even in 4e.

House rules galore.. but that's the fun part!


Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

 

[Hautamaki]

I've played ToM and grid both and one of the biggest things I've noticed is that as a DM I have a harder time killing a PC in a ToM combat. Having a grid makes everything so much more objective and clear, especially in a complicated situation, that if a PC dies, he dies, and that's it. But in a ToM situation where there are numerous things that are not specifically defined (and in a complex situation it would take forever to describe them all) that it almost always inevitably ends up that things are fudged, and then almost always in the PC's favor.

If you want to run a gritty game where PC death is always a possibility, if not downright likely sooner or later, I think going with a grid makes that much easier. On the other hand, if you want to run a more heroic/storyline kind of game a grid is just going to slow you down and occasionally get in the way of PCs doing awesome stuff they'd be able to fudge their way through in a ToM system.