D&D (2024) D&D Dungeon Master’s Guide (2024)

[Stormonu]

Hirelings are in the PHB, Equipment chapter, Services heading, same as in 2014.

A price in the PHB is nothing like the rules we had to cover such individuals in previous versions. Having your own personal Robin or Band of Merry Men in 5E is nothing like it was in previous editions. Up to about 3E, which culminated in the Leadership feat/rules it is a very different beast.

 

[kigmatzomat]

A price in the PHB is nothing like the rules we had to cover such individuals in previous versions. Having your own personal Robin or Band of Merry Men in 5E is nothing like it was in previous editions. Up to about 3E, which culminated in the Leadership feat/rules it is a very different beast.

Do you remember the 2e henchmen rules? Because I do. There were no rules. It was a page of "at some point, a hireling will probably become a buddy. How? You figure it out. When? When somebody feels ready. Just make sure they are a few levels behind. Make 2 character sheets for them, give the basic one to player, keep one that also has motivations and backstory."

(I don't remember 1e rules, it's been 30yrs)

Hirelings had more rules but most of it was predicated on the PCs wanting to hire hundreds of people. Anyone who simply wanted a couple of teamsters to drive a wagon or a couple guards to protect livestock had little more than a price list. It was really some stealth stronghold rules.

I do think the DMG deserves one pages and maybe 3 charts on strongholds to provide a basic framework to spice up their campaigns.

 It is a way for a dm to create a sink for gold, create new form of wealth (authority, respect, titles) for players to collect, create political ties, provide RP opportunities, motivation for evil characters to defend villagers, and a hostage to fortune. (No, not the villagers. The wealth the land represents)

Anything more than that needs a whole chapter and at that point get a dedicated supplement.

 

[TiQuinn]

Do you remember the 2e henchmen rules? Because I do. There were no rules. It was a page of "at some point, a hireling will probably become a buddy. How? You figure it out. When? When somebody feels ready. Just make sure they are a few levels behind. Make 2 character sheets for them, give the basic one to player, keep one that also has motivations and backstory."

(I don't remember 1e rules, it's been 30yrs)

Hirelings had more rules but most of it was predicated on the PCs wanting to hire hundreds of people. Anyone who simply wanted a couple of teamsters to drive a wagon or a couple guards to protect livestock had little more than a price list. It was really some stealth stronghold rules.

I do think the DMG deserves one pages and maybe 3 charts on strongholds to provide a basic framework to spice up their campaigns.

 It is a way for a dm to create a sink for gold, create new form of wealth (authority, respect, titles) for players to collect, create political ties, provide RP opportunities, motivation for evil characters to defend villagers, and a hostage to fortune. (No, not the villagers. The wealth the land represents)

Anything more than that needs a whole chapter and at that point get a dedicated supplement.

That’s not quite true. If you’re talking about 2e, there’s a whole section on rules for henchman. It’s just that they read like suggestions with the “thou shalt” statements sprinkled throughout the narrative text, which is pretty much the way all rules were written back then. But a henchman had to be found as part of an adventure - they couldn’t just be hired. The number of henchmen you had was based on your Charisma and was a lifetime limit. If a henchman died, they still counted against your limit. They leveled like any other character did. A weird rule to me was if the henchman ever gained more levels than the PC, they would no longer be a henchman - something that seemed unlikely unless you used level drain which always struck me as narratively garbage.

So yeah, there were a lot of rules around henchman. Hirelings were easier - you paid them to set off your traps and carry your stuff.

 

[Micah Sweet]

A price in the PHB is nothing like the rules we had to cover such individuals in previous versions. Having your own personal Robin or Band of Merry Men in 5E is nothing like it was in previous editions. Up to about 3E, which culminated in the Leadership feat/rules it is a very different beast.

Level Up has great rules for tiered followers, expanded and followed up on in post-core products.

 

[kigmatzomat]

That’s not quite true. If you’re talking about 2e, there’s a whole section on rules for henchman.

Henchmen occupy all of page 151 and half of page 152 In my copy of the 2e dmg. Several paragraphs of it is a conversation where a player has their henchman volunteer to be a troll's dinner.

It’s just that they read like suggestions with the “thou shalt” statements sprinkled throughout the narrative text, which is pretty much the way all rules were written back then. But a henchman had to be found as part of an adventure - they couldn’t just be hired.

The 2e phb says "Henchmen can come from any source. Most often they are at first mere hirelings or followers. ....There is no clear line an NPC must cross to make the transition from hireling to henchman."

The number of henchmen you had was based on your Charisma and was a lifetime limit. If a henchman died, they still counted against your limit.

The phb implies that's for dead henchmen but doesn't say it explicitly. I'm not sure how "he taught me all he could" is cause to not attract more allies.

There's also some conflict between phb & dmg on what happens if they meet or exceed the pc.

Phb: "Should he ever equal or surpass the PC's level, the henchman leaves forever"

Dmg: "if a henchman reaches an equal level, he will depart.... and set out on his own. This doesn’t mean he disappears forever. ....They can show up as an NPC, and can still be considered a friend of the PC"

They leveled like any other character did. A weird rule to me was if the henchman ever gained more levels than the PC, they would no longer be a henchman - something that seemed unlikely unless you used level drain which always struck me as narratively garbage.

They earned half the xp of PCs, but with 2e class based levels, a rogue level is half the xp of a wizard. Factor in multi/dual classed characters and even earning half xp they could outpace some PCs.

 

[TiQuinn]

Henchmen occupy all of page 151 and half of page 152 In my copy of the 2e dmg. Several paragraphs of it is a conversation where a player has their henchman volunteer to be a troll's dinner.

Yes, that would be a whole section. In very small font. Not counting the DMG. Let's put it this way, there's probably more words dedicated to 2e Henchmen than in some of the Character Race entries in the 5e PHB.

The 2e phb says "Henchmen can come from any source. Most often they are at first mere hirelings or followers. ....There is no clear line an NPC must cross to make the transition from hireling to henchman."

My point is you can't simply go out and "buy a henchmen". Even if they start as a hireling, they have to distinguish themselves in some way. The PC has to form a bond, they have to do something to stand out, i.e. they have to be found through adventuring. Most of the time in adventures they were called out as leveled NPCs who would join the party and potentially become henchmen.

As it says: "Attracting a henchman is fairly difficult. One cannot advertise for friends with any great success."

The phb implies that's for dead henchmen but doesn't say it explicitly. I'm not sure how "he taught me all he could" is cause to not attract more allies.

"A PC's Charisma determines the maximum number of henchmen he can have. This is a lifetime limit, not just a maximum possible at any given time."

Seems pretty cut and dry to me, but then again, it's the 2nd edition PHB. Why put into clear, distinct language when you can drone on for over 1500 words that double back on itself?

There's also some conflict between phb & dmg on what happens if they meet or exceed the pc.

Phb: "Should he ever equal or surpass the PC's level, the henchman leaves forever"

Dmg: "if a henchman reaches an equal level, he will depart.... and set out on his own. This doesn’t mean he disappears forever. ....They can show up as an NPC, and can still be considered a friend of the PC"



They earned half the xp of PCs, but with 2e class based levels, a rogue level is half the xp of a wizard. Factor in multi/dual classed characters and even earning half xp they could outpace some PCs.

The stars would have to fall into a very specific alignment for that one to happen, and having a henchmen leave a multi-class/dual-class character would be a judgment call by the DM. 2e class levels can't be easily summed up as a 5/4 Fighter/Magic User being a 9th level character, but neither are they simply a 5th level Fighter or a 4th level Magic User. They are the equivalent of a 6th level fighter, or a 5th level Magic User.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

So... the FLGS release of the DMG is 5 weeks away.

Have we even seen any Previews yet? They did a SLEW of videos and promotions for the PHB (after months and months of playtesting).

DMG? Crickets. Even after they promised UAs, they only delivered the Bastions one. (Which needed a LOT of work).

What do you think? Are we going to see anything at all?

 

[TiQuinn]

So... the FLGS release of the DMG is 5 weeks away.

Have we even seen any Previews yet? They did a SLEW of videos and promotions for the PHB (after months and months of playtesting).

DMG? Crickets. Even after they promised UAs, they only delivered the Bastions one. (Which needed a LOT of work).

What do you think? Are we going to see anything at all?

Yeah I’ve been waiting to hear more on this but it feels like it’s the same D&D trap: It’s a book for 1/5th of a typical gaming group so how much advertising does it get compared to a book you sell to the whole group?

 

[Parmandur]

So... the FLGS release of the DMG is 5 weeks away.

Have we even seen any Previews yet? They did a SLEW of videos and promotions for the PHB (after months and months of playtesting).

DMG? Crickets. Even after they promised UAs, they only delivered the Bastions one. (Which needed a LOT of work).

What do you think? Are we going to see anything at all?

I think we will, but much .ore low key. There were a handful of DMG previews the past couple months (such as the poster map), but no doubt we will see more...soon...

 

[tetrasodium]

So... the FLGS release of the DMG is 5 weeks away.

Have we even seen any Previews yet? They did a SLEW of videos and promotions for the PHB (after months and months of playtesting).

DMG? Crickets. Even after they promised UAs, they only delivered the Bastions one. (Which needed a LOT of work).

What do you think? Are we going to see anything at all?

Remember when folks commented on the apparent lack of dm advocate & outright hostility wotc was showing towards DMs in the 2024 stuff only to be told that they were over reacting?... Your question shows that those concerned about the afterthought section of the table was not overreacting