D&D General D&D: Literally Don't Understand This

[mamba]

Okay, so it isn't what you are looking for.

The question is how folks handle WotC making something that isn't for them. Do folks shrug, and move on to something that is for them, or do they make a big stink online over one piece of artwork they haven't seen before?

closer to the first than the second. When this came out I simply ignored it. I also did not start the topic, but since it is going on already I see nothing wrong with posting in it.

 

[Lakesidefantasy]

I think the basis of the game now lacks identity to deviate from…

This is a good point. It helps me to understand my feelings about this.

 

[Mannahnin]

It's got a basis. It's just not the same basis that it was.

Again, the most popular fantasy works today are Minecraft, Avatar, anime and League of Legends. That's all a basis.

It is not the same basis as what today's young fantasy fans' parents and grandparents liked, but pretending it doesn't exist is bizarre.

That's not the even the modern basis for D&D however.

5.5 (evergreen edition, not a replacement for 5 supposedly) is not based on Avatar, Anime in any sense, or League of Legends.

It's one thing to claim that is the current fantasy scene, debatable but a claim.

It's another to claim that stuff is D&D in the totally not a new edition.

D&D has become increasingly self-referential, but when every edition of D&D has come out, its art, and the technology and fashion depicted in that art, has been significantly influenced by the contemporary cultural milieu (as Gygax might put it).

D&D is "the generic fantasy adventure/RPG", right? The elements of "fantasy" at any given time are going to be dependent on what prior works the audience has absorbed and has for reference points.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

That's not the even the modern basis for D&D however.

5.5 (evergreen edition, not a replacement for 5 supposedly) is not based on Avatar, Anime in any sense, or League of Legends.

It's one thing to claim that is the current fantasy scene, debatable but a claim.

It's another to claim that stuff is D&D in the totally not a new edition.

My understanding of the argument was "the basis of the game now lacks identity to deviate from."

Which isn't true. It's based off of contemporary fantasy tastes, which aren't even pretending to be Arthurian knights or dark ages miserabilism. Instead, it's pulling from intentionally ahistorical, brighter, multicultural works that often feature magi-tech.

 

[Mannahnin]

My understanding of the argument was "the basis of the game now lacks identity to deviate from."

Which isn't true. It's based off of contemporary fantasy tastes, which aren't even pretending to be Arthurian knights or dark ages miserabilism. Instead, it's pulling from intentionally ahistorical, brighter, multicultural works that often feature magi-tech.

I'm not sure I 100% agree with that. I think there are SOME elements of Arthurian knights in armor and pop-historical medieval European/early modern-based works in the mix. The weapon, armor, and equipment lists are still mostly centered there, for example.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I'm not sure I 100% agree with that. I think there are SOME elements of Arthurian knights in armor and pop-historical medieval European/early modern-based works in the mix. The weapon, armor, and equipment lists are still mostly centered there, for example.

Maybe, but I think it's mostly the remnants left in stuff like Final Fantasy. Yes, technically, a lot of that stuff is based on European armor and weaponry, but it's gone through a lot of changes since then and the goal isn't trying to be historically accurate. It's more about what looks cool or, depending on the artist, what looks coherent together.

 

[Scribe]

D&D has become increasingly self-referential, but when every edition of D&D has come out, its art, and the technology and fashion depicted in that art, has been significantly influenced by the contemporary cultural milieu (as Gygax might put it).

D&D is "the generic fantasy adventure/RPG", right? The elements of "fantasy" at any given time are going to be dependent on what prior works the audience has absorbed and has for reference points.

Sure, I can understand influences, obviously 5e has changed over its life, everyone knows that there are a few points in which a shift occured, we do not need to debate those again.

That said, 'D&D has become increasingly self-referential' is true, and I would argue since 3e there is a 'D&D' look.

Its not going to be Shadowdark or OSE/OSR, its not DCC, but it does have its own thing going.

That thing, is not the 1930's, to me. Nor is it League of Legends.

My understanding of the argument was "the basis of the game now lacks identity to deviate from."

Which isn't true. It's based off of contemporary fantasy tastes, which aren't even pretending to be Arthurian knights or dark ages miserabilism. Instead, it's pulling from intentionally ahistorical, brighter, multicultural works that often feature magi-tech.

Yeah I still think there is an identity, but I reject a lot of the shift out of hand in my own 'head canon' anyway.

 

[Staffan]

Maybe, but I think it's mostly the remnants left in stuff like Final Fantasy. Yes, technically, a lot of that stuff is based on European armor and weaponry, but it's gone through a lot of changes since then and the goal isn't trying to be historically accurate. It's more about what looks cool or, depending on the artist, what looks coherent together.

Appealing to historical accuracy in D&D is about as useful as appealing to the purity of the English language.

 

[Remathilis]

This is also about TNT plunger detonators, heat metal hotplates, museum cafes and gift shops, etc...

This is also about TNT plunger detonators, heat metal hotplates, museum cafes and gift shops, etc...

The apparatus of Kwalish is a giant submersible crab robot powered by magic. One of the old TSR modules (I forget which) had a room that was magically kept cold where food was stored (a walk in freezer). Sending stones are walkie-talkies. D&D had all manner of anachronistic magical technology even before Eberron. And I'm old enough to remember when "robots and choo-choos" where going to kill D&D. In 2003.

(Actually, I'm old enough to remember how rapiers in the 3e PHB was considered too futuristic for D&D's "medieval timeframe", and don't even get me started on the arquebus in 2e's PHB. But there it was, in the equipment list next to bronze plate mail. D&D has been nothing of not anachronistic)

 

[The Firebird]

It's got a basis. It's just not the same basis that it was.

Again, the most popular fantasy works today are Minecraft, Avatar, anime and League of Legends. That's all a basis.

It is not the same basis as what today's young fantasy fans' parents and grandparents liked, but pretending it doesn't exist is bizarre.

I don't see a lot of Avatar or Minecraft in the current version of the game. The Avatar audience is now in their 30s.

What I hear people talk about are Sanderson or Riordan. Riordan especially is a good example--his early works started out more conventionally, but his more recent novels including gender fluid and disabled characters and folks from a wide variety of cultural backgrounds. (See, e.g., the cast list for the Magnus Chase series).

Elsewhere, there has been an explosion of popularity in reinterpreted myths--the Song of Achilles or Circe probably chief among them--the bookstores I see have entire sections just for this kind of genre. What is selling now are works which center representation and identity, especially putting previously underrepresented identities into traditional contexts. That's where Radiant Citadel comes from.