D&D needs improvement

[ColonelHardisson]

Right, but do you buy peanut butter you don't like and spend time in the kitchen modifying it to a kind you do like? Or do you just buy the kind you like?

Ohhh nooss! Are you the Badfun Police?!!? Maybe he likes buying peanut butter and modifying it to his taste at home!

I really am just horsing around.

 

[buzz]

The first part sounds like old Runequest and/or Chevalier (aka Chivalry & Sorcery) rules to me. Both had extremely complex combat systems that might satisfy the OP's desires to accurately portray combat.

I would heartily reccomend the OP check out The Riddle of Steel and Burning Wheel. The former has a combat system endorsed by the Association for Renaissance Martial Arts. The latter has a wonderfully scalable system that makes combat very grim and "realistic". And both of them do all this wihtout minis.

 

[buzz]

Ohhh nooss! Are you the Badfun Police?!!?

Hands down, my favorite Cheap Trick song.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Right, but do you buy peanut butter you don't like and spend time in the kitchen modifying it to a kind you do like? Or do you just buy the kind you like?

And as for buying peanut butter and then trying to turn it into curry paste... forget it.

Heh. I don't eat peanut butter with a spoon. I buy peanut butter, bread, some nice jam, and turn it into a sandwich that I will enjoy. Unless there is a game system out there than meets your needs without tweaking, and unless you want to spend your money on system after system until you find the One, you probably would prefer to be able to prepare a tasty meal with what's in your kitchen.

ColonelHardisson, the badfun comment only came up because I was also posting on another thread at roughly the same time where the old "badfun" argument arose (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=163058), and I felt a little snarky. It wasn't really directed at you, or at anyone here. Well, except Buzz.

(And, no, Buzz, I don't really mean you, that was an attempt at humour.)

Comments about taking the OP out of context, or dwelling on minutia to make straw man arguments, though, I was serious about.

D&D it the big game. It's only natural that people want it to do what they were expecting it to do (or hoping it would) when they shelled out the bucks for it.

 

[Breakdaddy]

...I doubt it. WFRP is grimmer, but still pretty fuity as far as realistic combat or perfectly well-reasoned character classses...

Et tu, TB? WFRP is for EVERYONE to love and enjoy.

Ok ok, maybe not, and from what I've seen of Harnmaster, this TB is right. You will probably find it more appealing than D&D.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Heh. I don't eat peanut butter with a spoon. I buy peanut butter, bread, some nice jam, and turn it into a sandwich that I will enjoy. Unless there is a game system out there than meets your needs without tweaking, and unless you want to spend your money on system after system until you find the One, you probably would prefer to be able to prepare a tasty meal with what's in your kitchen.

Alternately, instead of spending money on system after system, you could read reviews, ask on message boards, perhaps even browse other systems at your Favorite Local Game Store (provided you're lucky enough to have one). Pretty much any other system on the market is cheaper than D&D, including every single one of its d20 derivatives. Even if it's not exactly what you want, modifying it is likely to be a lot easier and faster because you're closer to the desired result.

D&D it the big game. It's only natural that people want it to do what they were expecting it to do (or hoping it would) when they shelled out the bucks for it.

A few years ago, the Ford Taurus was the best-selling motor vehicle in America. A good, solid, full-sized sedan with a decent price. Reliable. Excellent safety rating. Unusual styling. It was The Big Car.

I wouldn't buy one if I wanted a sports car, a pickup truck, or an SUV. Not even if I felt qualified to rebuild it on the same chasis and achieve the desired result. I might buy one and mod it to run differently, to have a sound system I liked better, to change the seating configuration, whatever.

The Playstation 2 is the best-selling video game console in the world. It has a great selection of games across many genres. It's The Big Console.

I wouldn't buy one in the hopes of modding it to play X-Box or GameCube or PC games, even if I felt qualified to rebuild it to achieve the desired result. I DEFINITELY wouldn't mod it to use as a calculator or a copier or a printer or a car's onboard computer. I might buy one and install a gameshark or, if interested in importing games, change the regional limitations.

There's a difference between tweaking something's core competency and using it to do something completely opposed to said core competency... especially when something else already has the core competency you want, AND is cheaper.

 

[Raven Crowking]

The Playstation 2 is the best-selling video game console in the world. It has a great selection of games across many genres. It's The Big Console.

I wouldn't buy one in the hopes of modding it to play X-Box or GameCube or PC games, even if I felt qualified to rebuild it to achieve the desired result. I DEFINITELY wouldn't mod it to use as a calculator or a copier or a printer or a car's onboard computer. I might buy one and install a gameshark or, if interested in importing games, change the regional limitations.

No, but if the advertising led you to believe that all of these games were coming out on the PlayStation 2, and they all came out on GameCube instead, you'd feel gypped. OP said that he started playing D&D, and that as time went on he began to feel gypped. Not the same as opening the box and going...."Whaaa!?! Where's my GameCube?"

Also, let's be honest....intentionally or not, the tone of the original responses was not, "Yeah, sorry, D&D isn't for everyone, but here's a game you might like" in a friendly manner.

RC

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Also, let's be honest....intentionally or not, the tone of the original responses was not, "Yeah, sorry, D&D isn't for everyone, but here's a game you might like" in a friendly manner.

It didn't seem that way to me.

 

[buzz]

Unless there is a game system out there than meets your needs without tweaking, and unless you want to spend your money on system after system until you find the One, you probably would prefer to be able to prepare a tasty meal with what's in your kitchen.

There are so many resources available to the RPG buyer these days that the above position is nonsensical. The OP's apparent tastes are so commonplace in RPGs that people here have already been able to reccomend a long list of alternatives. Almost (if not) all of the games mentioned have free versions or perviews available.

Sure, if you're really persnickety, you might have to go through a couple games until you find one you really like. Thankfully, most retailers let you make returns; Amazon gives you 30 days. Not to mention: ebay. You can't avoid the fact that things cost money. But better that money be spent getting you where you want to go than where you don't.

But, if you're determined to be defeatist, I can't stop you.

P.S.- None of the systems I currently play have had any major tweaking done. Two of the three have had one rule changed. The third is RAW. If a system needs major tweaking, I don't vote my dollars its way.

D&D it the big game. It's only natural that people want it to do what they were expecting it to do (or hoping it would) when they shelled out the bucks for it.

If they were expecting D&D to be a hyper-realistic, sim-facilitating game with no classes, a point-build system, and freeform experience, I'd have to ask them what cave they've been living in the last 30 years.

If the OP can get to ENWorld, he can get to info and resources for a couple thousand other RPGs. I suggest he make use of this consdierable power.

 

[JVisgaitis]

While I don't agree with almost anything you said, I really don't see changing the issues that you do have condusive to making D&D a "simpler game." If you want all the realism, which is fine, you'll be playing a game much MORE complex then 3.5.