D&D (2024) D&D species article

I think they are quite straight forward.
Oh, they're often straightforward. They just then do things unrelated to the straightforward claims they make, and then either backpedal, fall silent and hope people just get over it, or double down (as with the joke folks made earlier about a hypothetical fairy race that can be tiny for 5 minutes a day).
 

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You're never going to make the best version of your product by ignoring the portion of your customer base that's been supporting you the longest. They know the most about the product, what you done and tried to do over your history, and how circumstances at the time affected those attempts. In short it is a form of institutional wisdom.

Well sure but they will only cater to us so much. While they pay lip service to Krynn and Greyhawk etc and put Venger on the Cover with other old iconic characters, that's the extent they will go.

Lip service. Just enough to draw us in. Works on some but not all.

Hell, it works on me to an extent. The Dragonlance adventure isnt good but man do I love Dragonlance.

Don't forget, one of the big appeals of 5E is that it was "like old D&D but updated!" I still see old AD&D players saying this. I mostly disagree but whatever works for them.
 

In your rush to quip non-answers for internet points, it may have escaped your notice that I didn't list OD&D. That aside, mentioning that feels a bit like a red herring to the wider point that is being made about games having a clear voice or 5e lacking one regarding its play. We can look at other non-Gygax games with voices. What other ad hominems will you make to avoid engaging with that point when you don't have Gygax's sexism to use as distraction?
What ad hominem did I use? I think your answer had more ad hominems than my initial post.

Maybe you missed my winking smiley. That was not meant seriously.

So I step back from this discussion.
 
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Then explain it to me. What are they trying to do, and have they been honest about it? Both those things matter.
I won't watch every video from the last twelve years again and search for those details. But their intention was made clear enough. And the resulting game seems to match most of it. They also tried different ideas. Those were rejected.
 

You will note that I did not use the word "lazy." I referred to it as bad design, because that's exactly what it is, and I explained why it is bad, without simply declaring it so.

Game design is a technology and a technique. As a result, wholly apart from the aesthetic interests, it can be evaluated on at least two different measures:
(a) Does the design achieve the play-goals for which it was designed? AKA: Does the system do the thing it tells you it's supposed to do?
(b) Does the design make thrifty and/or wise use of the tools it employs? AKA: Are the parts executed well, regardless of whether they do what they're supposed to do?

Okay, cook on that...

Shoehorning the vast, vast majority of supernatural things into spells--for God's sake, they tried to make WARLOCK PACTS into spells!!!--fails on both of these measures. In blindly shoving everything into a single box allegedly with the goal of making the system easier to approach, it actually makes the system harder to approach, because now, new players need to have reasonably deep knowledge of the spells system in order to make effective characters in the VAST majority of situations. Stuffing so many things into one ill-fitting basket does not make them easier to learn, particularly given how ludicrously diverse "spells" are as a category.

I think there's some nuance here that you're missing. 4e shoved nearly everything into a spells (er, POWERS) category. Much more than 5e does! And for a similar reason to the reason for spell-ifying things: there's benefits to a standardized approach that heavily benefit your point (b) above. There's fewer sub-systems to learn, fewer exceptions to the general rule. One fairly consistent system is easier to learn than a scattered bundle of loosely related systems, even if it's reasonably complex (which spellcasting and 4e powers both are, I'd say)

I agree in principle that one-size-fits-all is not a great road to travel down, and I think the homogeneity and narrative emptiness of 4e powers shows what happens as you near an end of that curve. I don't want 5e to go in that direction. But I don't think it's clearly bad design in every case. There's a case for spell-ifying mechanics that needs to be evaluated more on a case by case basis than on a blanket condemnation of turning things into spells. If you're close to being a spell already, maybe we gain a lot of efficiency and understanding by making you into a spell. D&D has spells, you're not going to be able to play D&D and ignore the spellcating mechanic entirely, any more than you're going to be able to avoid rolling a die and adding modifiers, and I think that's OK in principle. It's not too much to expect most players to grok the mechanics for spellcasting, even if they don't engage with them much. Even your Champion Fighters might pick up a magic shield that casts a spell.


And as for "thrift," the only thrift is in slimming down every chapter that isn't the spells chapter...which, by the way, the chapters dedicated to spells (how they work, and then the list thereof) are the lion's share of the PHB. It's neither thrifty nor wise, doubly so when (at least prior to the last couple years) they didn't even print creatures with the text of the spells they know, just the names. Cue continuous book-flipping, or digital lookup (or, I guess, pre-printed text the DM had to prepare for herself), just to run a single combat.

The 2024 edition is evidently taking steps to address that by giving monsters more specific actions and relying less on the Spellcasting trait and system knowledge. It seems like they see the book flipping and lookup and see it as an issue and are taking steps in monster design to address it. I think this is broadly a good thing.

I don't think the quantity of spells is much of a damning thing, any more than 4e's profound mass of powers was much of a damning thing. I do like that 5e tends to not make a unique spell or ability for EVERYTHING, which enables some degree of knowledge to cross between game functions. If I have access to fireball as a sorcerer or as a wizard or from a necklace of fireballs, I don't need to learn a new slightly different version of fireball for each. But spell-ifying things that are not spells eats away at that.

As both an exercise in the technology of designing games, and as a demonstration of game design technique, the absolute kindest thing you can say about 5e is that it is a hot mess, and the fact that they try to shove nearly everything into "spells" is one of the greater errors the design team has committed to.
I am deeply skeptical of this kind of critique of 5e as a hot mess or as bad design, a critique of technique. Design has a goal and a reason, and understanding it in context is so much more valuable than dismissing it as bad. Even most of the deep jank of some 1e and 2e choices have a way they make sense, a way to appreciate what people were thinking at the time, and a way to realize that "improvements" can also leave behind some valuable design elements. Dismissing the work of dozens of very good and very thoughtful professional game designers working in one of the most demanding environments possible in this little industry on the TTRPG played by the most people in the world as "bad design" feels exceptionally shallow and not a little elitist. There absolutely can be bad design, even in 5e, but most of the time the reality is more complex than this simple dismissive label.

I don't think turning everything into spells is intrinsically bad design (it certainly makes them easier to remember and reinforces knowledge of an important subsystem), but I do think that the experience of playing a game where every action shares that mechanic feels repetitive, without meaningful choice or characterization. The 2024 edition doesn't seem like it will be as bad as 4e in that regard, but given the appeal to the designer of this design trend, it's definitely worth calling out areas where isn't satisfying.
 


What ad hominem did I use?

Maybe you missed my winking smiley. That was not meant seriously.

So I step back from this discussion.
I will respect your decision to step back from this discussion, though I will still answer your question. I will also say that while you may have included a winking smiley, it does not always mean "not meant seriously." It can carry some degree of condescension or smugness.

The ad hominem involved was not against me. It was against Gary Gygax. Regardles of whether we both believe that Gygax was sexist, it is my understanding that this constitutes an ad hominem because it attacks the character of Gary Gygax instead of the argument about TTRPGs having a voice or not. It may be that this does not technically constitute an ad hominem, as you are not attacking me. However, if that is the case, then I cannot tell you the correct informal fallacy that this constitutes, though it may simply be a fallacy of relevancy.
 


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