d20 backlash??

[Greg K]

The problem I see now is that WotC is leveraging its advantages to produce designs that are consistently superior on every level to third party stuff. For a time, d20 stuff could compete with WotC. Wizards had the same problem with building up a knowledge base and methods for d20 design. They also produced softcover, black and white books just like d20 companies. Now, neither of those are factors any more.

Sorry, I don't necessarily agree with this.

WOTC has a distinct advantage over third party publishers in that WOTC can leverage its name and resources to sell more d20 products. Sales, however, do not necessarily reflect better design over third party publishers.

First, WOTC created d20 and this brings with it a large number of die hard loyalists who will never even look at, let alone purchase a third party product, because third party rules are not "official".

Second, WOTC, whether it is by name or association with Hasbro, can get their products into outlets that will not carry third party d20 products. Therefore, a d20 player without internet access or a local game store may never see a third party product.

Third, assuming that a consumer both has access to third party DND or d20 Modern and is willing to look at said products does not mean that the consumer is going to buy the third party product- even if they feel it is superior to WOTC products. The consumer may go with the WOTC product perceiving it be a product to be more likely accepted at more gaming tables due to its being produced by WOTC.

None of the above reflect better product design on the part of WOTC, but rather WOTC's dominance of d20 by being the official source for DND and D20 Modern.

 

[fanboy2000]

First, WOTC created d20 and this brings with it a large number of die hard loyalists who will never even look at, let alone purchase a third party product, because third party rules are not "official".

I don't think that's as true as it used to be. Oh, WotC has it's share of die hards, no doubt about it. I disagree with the official part. People who game for even a short peiord of time soon learn that official means nothing because every group is diffrent. Most WotC die hards honestly think WotC produces better game material.

Second, WOTC, whether it is by name or association with Hasbro, can get their products into outlets that will not carry third party d20 products. Therefore, a d20 player without internet access or a local game store may never see a third party product.

Actually, this is a hold over from TSR. Most of TSR's sales of AD&D books came from regular book stores like Waldenbooks and BDalton. Those stores are already used to carrying D&D books from WotC. Let's not forget that their quartly catolog is sent to book stores and contains many, many novels.

Third, assuming that a consumer both has access to third party DND or d20 Modern and is willing to look at said products does not mean that the consumer is going to buy the third party product- even if they feel it is superior to WOTC products. The consumer may go with the WOTC product perceiving it be a product to be more likely accepted at more gaming tables due to its being produced by WOTC.

I think this is true from a player perspective. If you know that you're in a bigger fight with your DM for 3rd party material, then you don't wast your money on it. DMs, on the other hand, don't need to convince anyone to allow the new material.

None of the above reflect better product design on the part of WOTC, but rather WOTC's dominance of d20 by being the official source for DND and D20 Modern.

While you're right about D&D, WotC's stratagy for d20 Modern is basicly to let the 3rd parties support it. Guess how many science fiction roleplaying games I've bought, from WotC, that use the d20 Modern ruleset. Ready? One. How many have I purchesed from Ronin Arts? Eight. While I'm at it, let's not forget the Modern Player's Companion from The Game Mechanics and Ultramodern Firearms. WotC has left the majority of the support for D20 Modern to 3rd parties.

I realize this isn't going to come as a shock from a guy who calls himself fanboy, but I honeslty think WotC products are superior to most 3rd parties. I've been really burned by 3rd party books. Books that people praise on these boards. (Ugh, I hated Relics and Rituals, I made a huge mistake in allowing that book.) I do buy 3rd party books. I love my Player's Guide to the Wilderlands and City-State of the Invincible Overlord, but I would say thouse books are on par with books like Eberron and Sharn:City of Towers. The only thing WotC misses regularly for me is PrCs and adventures. PrCs are hit and miss no matter what, and Necromancer is simply the Sovereign of Adventures.

 

[Orcus]

d20 backlash.

I guess I dont quite know what that means. Backlash by who? I think the answer to the question is different based on who the "who" is.

Backlash by purchasers?

I wouldnt call it a backlash, but I see what you are saying and I have witnessed that. The initial flood of products certainly contained a big batch of crap along with good stuff, and people got burned. I think it has been more of a "whittling away" by purchasers. People have come to know who they can trust to deliver the goods adn I think people have tended to let that control some buying decisions.

The other issue for purchasers is marginal utility. For example, when 3.0 first came out adventures were all the rage for two reasons: 1. no one had any and the WotC ones were lame so people needed them; and 2. they were (relatively) easy for publishers to get out right away. But at some point, their marginal utility decreased. As Dungeon got better at hitting the target and as people got more comfortable making 3E adventures themselves (that was a learning curve for DMs, since 3E is WAY more preparation intensive) there was less need for 3rd party adventures. Heck, if you have 10 adventures already, what is the marginal utility of getting the 11th? Low. BUT, if you have 0, the marginal utility of getting that 1st and 2nd one is very high. Same thing with rule books. That first book of spells was useful. But the 6th one isnt that useful, unless it is really good.

And that is the problem. Marginal utility. At this point, most things have been done. Now it is just down to doing a "different one." People want the first one, but dont necessarily need the different one. If you've got 3 setting books, you may not need the 4th (though frankly everyone needs our Wilderlands setting, nothing in the world is like it , but I digress...).

Backlash by gamers in general?

Sure. Its just natural gamer contrariness. I have it. Every gamer has it. Its why we all left AD&D for GURPS or for some other system. We just get bored of the same thing after a while. "Lets play something else." Are people a little less geeked about d20? I'd say yes. Plus there are some people who just want to hate WotC and D&D and that is just that.

Backlash by stores?

Yeah, maybe. They got burned by some early d20 too. And they tend to follow the money. That is why all the publishers went to hardbacks, because the retailers really felt comfortable ordering and stocking those and were less comfortable with softbacks. This is particularly true for bookstores (as opposed to game stores).

Backlash by publishers?

I dont know. It hasnt happened to us. We have always had a market strategy and have tailored it over time. But we have always had one. For the companies that just jumped in for the jack then they are jumping out. Or maybe things didnt make as much money as anticipated. Whatever. We (Necro) have had no trouble maintianing our amount of releases over time and have stayed pretty consistent and had no problem. Sure, sales numbers have dipped (oh for the days of Crucible of Freya!) but they hit their point and have been pretty consistent for some time now.

There are lots of reasons why companies fold up, many that have nothing to do with d20. d20 was a good entrance for new companies, and new companies fail for all sorts of reasons, many ahving to do with people and interactions and maintaining and interest level and work ethic to get projects done; all of which is not related to the health of d20 at all. Sometimes it is financial, sometimes personal, sometimes motivation, sometimes a bad business break. Whatever. In fact, you should expect more failed companies in a field that is "entry level friendly" which d20 certainly was for a long time. And company failure often has nothing to do with quality of product. I like to use Fiery Dragon as an example. If I had my way (and I did for a while ) those guys would be on top of the world. I have always loved their stuff and the quality of their products. But something just didnt catch on and work for them as a book print company. But they have been super creative with the counters and the battle box and other things. It is that same creativity I love in their products that I think has kept them going. But if quality and merit alone were the reason for business success, in my book they would be the richest guys in gaming.

But back to my point, it would be hard, without a very specific focus and plan, to be d20 only in my opinion. You dont see many people doing it any more at a real successful print product level. And the ones that are, IMHO, do have that focus. We've been very lucky in that regard. Unless your name is Monte Cook, it is pretty hard to be a d20 only company.

Just my thoughts...

Clark

 

[MonsterMash]

I wouldnt call it a backlash, but I see what you are saying and I have witnessed that. The initial flood of products certainly contained a big batch of crap along with good stuff, and people got burned. I think it has been more of a "whittling away" by purchasers. People have come to know who they can trust to deliver the goods and I think people have tended to let that control some buying decisions.

Necromancer Games by any chance?

And that is the problem. Marginal utility. At this point, most things have been done. Now it is just down to doing a "different one." People want the first one, but dont necessarily need the different one. If you've got 3 setting books, you may not need the 4th (though frankly everyone needs our Wilderlands setting, nothing in the world is like it , but I digress...).

Have to agree on the Wilderlands - my review of the CSIO will be coming soon and its going to be favourable.

I think that now the market has changed and only companies with quality, reputation, and distribution will keep going in print (lack of distribution seems to have killed off MonkeyGod in D20 publishing).

 

[Rawhide]

It's kind of hard to jump in after Clark, who after all has experience and perspective with what publishers and distributors are saying and doing that most of us lack. That said, I do have a thought or two.

Yes, there is at least one backlash against d20. It's a distributor/retailer backlash. Just like they've had backlashes against CCGs and miniatures games. It's because many of them do the same stupid thing over and over: they see something is selling well, buy all of it they possibly can, then get pissed when the market shifts.

When anything d20 sold 5000 copies even if it was crap, no one acted as a gatekeeper. Retailers (and thus distributors) bought just as much CrapFanboy d20 company releases as Green Ronin or Necro. In 2000, that worked. By 2001, you couldn't buy everything, so retails stuck to names they recognized or looked really, really cool.

Then the other problem happened. Established publishers produced crap books, often as conversions. Remember Deadlands d20? The publisher apparently felt fans didn't respond to a change in system. The real problem is that the conversion was shoddy as heck. Even allowing for Mearls' learning curve among publishers, that book was poorly done. If any serious d20 designer had been brought in for it (and a bunch got laid off from WotC around then, so they were available) it would have sold much better.

An even better example is Silver Age Sentinels d20. The original SAS rocks, but the d20 version reeks. It's the worst d20 effort I've personally ever seen. It make no sense at all, and is close to unusable. But since d20 was supposed to be hot, and GoO was known, a lot got ordered.

When things like that failed to sell (and at my FLGS would still be on shelves if they hadn't been moved to $5 bargain bins) retailers concluded it was impossible to pick the winners from the losers. If there hadn't been a d20 glut in late 2002/2003 it might not have been so bad, but there was.

So, WotC still sells. That's both because people know it won't suck as bad as SAS did, and because they can advertise. A lot of fan related sites have ads for them, at movie new sites and fiction sites. And don't think there aren;t a lot of harcore WotC only pople out there- there are. Most rpg fans aren;t on the internet, and most stick to one or two publishers tops.

A few others can still get decent numbers. But even Necro, Mongoose and Green ronin arenl;t selling like they did. Other people had to pull out, and that starts the second backlash -- disgruntled publishers.

Well, maybe not disgruntled exactly. but consider -- if you used to publish d20, and now you don't, is it in your best interest to promote d20? No, you want people to give up on it so they'll buy your books for Other Game. So a lot of publishers now talk up their Other Game, while doing everything they can to bring down d20 without -looking- like they're trying to bring it down.

SJGames, for example, has one lone idiot writer doing d20 stuff for Pyramid, once a month. He's really only there to reming die-hard GURPS fans that they hate d20. It's worth SJGames time and money to put out one article amonth they know everyone will hate, to drive backlash sales of their own books.

The backlash is real, but it's all based on money. Gamer backlash, if it exists, is just the same pickng and moaning that's gone on since Dave and Gary decided to print a little game.

 

[JVisgaitis]

When anything d20 sold 5000 copies even if it was crap, no one acted as a gatekeeper. Retailers (and thus distributors) bought just as much CrapFanboy d20 company releases as Green Ronin or Necro. In 2000, that worked. By 2001, you couldn't buy everything, so retails stuck to names they recognized or looked really, really cool.

I disagree with this. A lot of the local retailers I visit will only order from known companies no matter how cool something looks. I've been trying to get a few books like Dark Legacies, Grim Tales, etc. and they tell me they won't order them because its d20 and they are only special order. Most of the retailers in my area stock only Green Ronin, Privateer, Malhavoc, Wizards, and Sword and Sorcery.

 

[Gomez]

Then the other problem happened. Established publishers produced crap books, often as conversions. Remember Deadlands d20? The publisher apparently felt fans didn't respond to a change in system. The real problem is that the conversion was shoddy as heck. Even allowing for Mearls' learning curve among publishers, that book was poorly done. If any serious d20 designer had been brought in for it (and a bunch got laid off from WotC around then, so they were available) it would have sold much better.

An even better example is Silver Age Sentinels d20. The original SAS rocks, but the d20 version reeks. It's the worst d20 effort I've personally ever seen. It make no sense at all, and is close to unusable. But since d20 was supposed to be hot, and GoO was known, a lot got ordered.

I have to disagree with both these opinions. Deadlands d20 and Silver Age Sentinels are good books in my humble opinion. Both have recieved very positive reviews. One of the reasons SAS d20 didn't do so well is that a even better Superhero d20 book, Mutants and Masterminds came out just after SAS d20 did. While SAS is a good book, M&M was just better and thus grabbed the lion's share of the superhero market at the time.

 

[Nisarg]

I remember the first time I heard the term "d20 backlash", it was sometime in late 2001. Don't ask me for the specific date because I'm no good for that, but I remember many of the details perfectly. It must have been late 2001 because it was snowing already, George Harrison had just died, and my steady girl of two years had left my house in shame after her meth-addict side-action guy broke into the house and tried to attack me with a knife.
It had been quite a scene, and I didn't tend to get into knife-fights even then, so the dying days of that whole foul year are pretty sharply inscribed in my memory.

My Star Wars group had taken to running what amounted to all-nighters, leaving my house at six, seven in the morning, and it was near the end of that morning that one of my players declared to me that there was a serious D20 backlash going on, that D20 was at its end, finished, and a new diversity of games would arise. He pointed to his brand-spanking new copy of Exalted as evidence, sagely prophecying that it would be D&D's replacement.
And I mean, at the time, it was hard to doubt the guy. How could you? He'd worked 8 years in a McDonalds! He was a lifer! If a man like that wasn't an expert in the economics of RPGs and gaming trends, who would be?

But my initial panic at his predictions soon abated. I realized pretty fast that his wish to see D20 go down the tubes was more than overcoming his logic. He was actually one of these on-the-fence "serious" types who'd been successfully brainwashed by White Wolf into thinking that gaming has to be a "work of art", yet deep down he was a good kid. I'd see him breaking free of those constraints every week in my star wars game and learning more and more that you can have gonzo hilarity interspersed with deep plotlines, without having to go all funkiller on the sheer enjoyment of the game. In time, he would drop all that unhealthy conditioning, but not before it had given him an ulcer and caused him to lose his hair. Well, that might not have been so much White Wolf as the McDonald's, the verdict's still out on that one.

But the verdict on D20 was crystal clear. D20 had accomplished the impossible: Do you remember those "crappy" supplements that used to be put out for AD&D throughout much of the 80s and 90s, by third-party publishers? Most people don't, because if you were a third-party publisher trying to piggyback the D&D system in those decades you were either ignored or sued. Not all of them were crappy, but none could really be successful.

With D20, we have seen the democratization of the dominant paradigm: now its every man for himself, sink or swim, but you CAN follow the dream of creating a book for D&D that won't be published by Wizards, but will be published by R. Bumquist SmallPress and can still become a critical, and in very rare cases even a financial, hit! That is pretty heady stuff.

Its the stuff that dreams are made of, really. Looking back now some three and a half years on that cold winter night I know that it was only the first of many times I would hear about a "d20 backlash" or the "death of D20", but I can look at it all now with a certainty and clarity of understanding, seeing that catterwauling for just what it is. And just like there'll be a few human losers out there whose sheer rage at all that is enjoyed by the gaming public for actually being fun and playable will cause them to declare the impending doom of D20 like a gaggle of mad jeremiahs, causing unneeded fear in goodhearted gamers who worry too much; so too will that dream, and the free ability to contribute and be a part of the dream, make sure that the majority of gamers will continue to support D20. No outside force, no pseudo-intellectual's nocturnal emissions, will change that; only D20 itself, and the people and companies who propel it forwards, could actually cause it harm. IF D20 dies someday, it will not be from a backlash, it will be from suicide.

But for now, the times are far from that, and my advice to you is to get off the computer, call up some friends, and enjoy the new golden age of gaming.

Nisarg

 

[JoeGKushner]

I have to disagree with both these opinions. Deadlands d20 and Silver Age Sentinels are good books in my humble opinion. Both have recieved very positive reviews. One of the reasons SAS d20 didn't do so well is that a even better Superhero d20 book, Mutants and Masterminds came out just after SAS d20 did. While SAS is a good book, M&M was just better and thus grabbed the lion's share of the superhero market at the time.

I'm not going to say that the d20 Silver Age Sentinels version was bad. I know many people who enjoy it.

However, their tri-stat version generally handles supers better, doesn't have the d20 label and the associated issues (i.e. feats), and for $5 more, was in full color.

Throw in M&M and Hero 5th ed and yeah, I can see where SAS d20 was hurting as a core book.

 

[Ranger REG]

I have to disagree with both these opinions. Deadlands d20 and Silver Age Sentinels are good books in my humble opinion. Both have recieved very positive reviews. One of the reasons SAS d20 didn't do so well is that a even better Superhero d20 book, Mutants and Masterminds came out just after SAS d20 did. While SAS is a good book, M&M was just better and thus grabbed the lion's share of the superhero market at the time.

And the reason Pinnacle have stopped publishing Deadlands d20 and Weird War II lines is...?