Dagger Implement Weirdness

[Irda Ranger]

If you are a Swordmage your implement is your weapon. If you are attacking with your implement you are attacking with your weapon. If you are doing damage with your implement you are doing damage with your weapon.

Correct, wrong & wrong. 1 for 3.

The question is: What power are you using, and what keywords does that power have?

If you using a "Weapon" keyword power you are using it "as a Weapon." If you are using an "Implement" keyword power you are using it "as an Implement."

Implements: ... Your blade adds its enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls and any extra damage granted by a property (if applicable) when used as an implement. You do not gain your weapon proficiency bonus to the attack roll when using your blade as an implement.

There is a clear distinction between uses "as" an Implement or "as" a Weapon. How you are using it depends on the keywords of the Attack Power used.

Swordmages even have implement powers that do [w] for damage.

So what? That's how the Power works. That doesn't change the keywords associated with the Power. You have an Implement & you're using it as an Implement (not a Weapon), and therefore the implement's Weapon Powers (if any) do not apply - only the Enhancements, Critical and Properties do.

Other then the FAQ/CSR, can you show me anywhere it is written that says a Swordmage can't use his magic weapons power with one of his implement powers?

1) Can you show me rules that say he can use them? The rules are permissive, not restrictive, so you need a rule saying you can doing something, not a rule saying you can't. The only permissions received by the Swordmage's Implement Class Trait are adding the Item's Enhancement Bonus to attack and damage and adding extra damage granted by an Item Property.

No permission is granted to apply the blade's Item Powers - therefore you can't.

2) Until they are revoked FAQ/CSR are good rules. Their meaning is clear and there is no need to cite any additional sources.

 

[Bryan Reese]

I too e-mailed, then called, Customer Service about this. Both times they backed up the FAQ and said it came from R&D. When using a Weapon as an Implement, all you get is the Properties, Enhancement, and Crit, nothing else.

I don' agree with it but there it is.

 

[Akaiku]

Is there any new weapon enhancements for daggers in the phb 2 to address that daggers have no magical powers in the hands of a sorcerer, it seems?

 

[WalterKovacs]

Is there any new weapon enhancements for daggers in the phb 2 to address that daggers have no magical powers in the hands of a sorcerer, it seems?

The tooth of chaos on the dnd xp sorceror's sheet had a power that refered to making a sorceror attack with the dagger. Daggers don't have a seperate section (like orbs, staffs, wands, totems, rods, etc) so it must be a case of exception based design. If a power specifically refers to an implement based attack using the weapon, then it can be used that way.

EDIT:

The PHBII does have a bit about weapons as implements ... and only really restates the use the enhancement, not the prof bonus, and at least states that you do get the critical effect (which I think was missing in earlier parts). It doesn't really say anything of properties or powers though, however properties and powers only matter if they apply during an attack (many properties or powers apply at other times).

In the properties and powers that are meant to be used as implements, they refer to hitting with a power using the weapon ... not hitting with the weapon which earlier weapons have had as properties/powers.

EDIT the second:

The staff deals with the opposite issue and says that you cannot use the properties or powers of a staff when using it as a weapon.