Daggerheart General Thread [+]

[Reynard]

Druid being based on World of Warcraft and recent D&D rather than fantasy, folklore, or history made it a non-starter for me. And the same for Witch which seems based on 'make a Halloween themed class' rather than again - folklore, fantasy, history, or modern world.

I am curious how you thought that folk lore, rather than video games and D&D, would be a big influence on DH. I don't think anything in the lead up or the book itself would suggest otherwise.

 

[Kichwas]

I am curious how you thought that folk lore, rather than video games and D&D, would be a big influence on DH. I don't think anything in the lead up or the book itself would suggest otherwise.

It's a fantasy game. I'd hope for some fantasy in a fantasy game.

Long as we're being snarky at each other.

But I'd hope for at least more well rounded classes so theming the way I'd want would be easier. I know who their audience is so I don't fault them for it. But I do see that it's where I will eventually wear out on the system.

I want a more fantasy themed and more narrative game than Daggerheart. It's still a great game. It's about 70% for me. That just means it has a shelf life I can see now.

 

[SteveC]

Druid being based on World of Warcraft and recent D&D rather than fantasy, folklore, or history made it a non-starter for me. And the same for Witch which seems based on 'make a Halloween themed class' rather than again - folklore, fantasy, history, or modern world.

Wizard being the only 'caster healer' feels weird. I like them as a healer. But having Druid be a 'bear tank' that can also cast when not in 'bear form' annoys me. (Ok, it's not a bear tank - but the beastform is so powerful that it's essentially what the class is).

I think this is one of the problems of where we are at the moment in terms of class design space. There is a definite zeitgeist going on about different classes that, if you don't like the current thinking, aren't going to be fun. And then we have games like Draw Steel where you go against that wisdom and make more niche classes ... and get the problem of "I can't make <character x> that would seem a common trope."

I sympathize with it, but I think it's a design issue with class systems in general. A system like Hero, or GURPS, or Savage Worlds ... they could do what you want, but have their own baggage of being generic as a result.

But since this is a + thread: I tend to look at a system to find a specific character idea that I can make work within the confines of that system. I think Daggerheart is a breath of fresh air because it has some design choices that are very deliberately creating a style of game. It has it's view of gaming that seems very current. But I'm going to acknowledge that it's going to rub some people the wrong way. And a few years from now, when the culture has shifted? Don't know.

 

[Campbell]

I think this is one of the problems of where we are at the moment in terms of class design space. There is a definite zeitgeist going on about different classes that, if you don't like the current thinking, aren't going to be fun. And then we have games like Draw Steel where you go against that wisdom and make more niche classes ... and get the problem of "I can't make <character x> that would seem a common trope."

I sympathize with it, but I think it's a design issue with class systems in general. A system like Hero, or GURPS, or Savage Worlds ... they could do what you want, but have their own baggage of being generic as a result.

But since this is a + thread: I tend to look at a system to find a specific character idea that I can make work within the confines of that system. I think Daggerheart is a breath of fresh air because it has some design choices that are very deliberately creating a style of game. It has it's view of gaming that seems very current. But I'm going to acknowledge that it's going to rub some people the wrong way. And a few years from now, when the culture has shifted? Don't know.

I think there's actually a pretty good mix in the zeitgeist. Daggerheart and Draw Steel go one way while Fabula Ultima and Plotweaver (Stormlight Archive) are going the other way (using classes as mix and match paths to let you build the specific character you envision).

 

[zakael19]

I also wish that the "beast form druid" wasn't baked in as much tbh, it actually makes that class a lot harder to reflavor. A bit of a limitation of how closely tied the game is to current D&D tropes I guess. Does make you wonder if it would cause any balance issues to swap Splendor for Sage on a Wizard to make a kindly wise forest hermit.

 

[Reynard]

I also wish that the "beast form druid" wasn't baked in as much tbh, it actually makes that class a lot harder to reflavor. A bit of a limitation of how closely tied the game is to current D&D tropes I guess. Does make you wonder if it would cause any balance issues to swap Splendor for Sage on a Wizard to make a kindly wise forest hermit.

I wonder if they gave some thought already to non-adjacent domains. Like, is the next set going to be cross pairs? I don't have the Void stuff in front of me to check.

 

[Vael]

I wonder if they gave some thought already to non-adjacent domains. Like, is the next set going to be cross pairs? I don't have the Void stuff in front of me to check.

The symmetry won't be maintained, and that's a good thing. In 4e, while it occasionally led to innovation ... like the Avenger, for example, it led to a lot of grid filling, see the never-ending arguments about a Martial Controller or the Ardent (I think that was the Psionic Leader).

I've seen attempts to codify and name a class for every possible 2 domain combos, but I don't think that that should happen, lol.

That said, the Void currently has 4 classes.

Witch - Sage and Dread*
Warlock - Grace and Dread*
Brawler - Bone and Valor
Assassin - Blade and Midnight

The last Darrington Q&A suggested that they are updating the Void this week with the Bloodhunter (Blade and Blood*). There was also a custom Arcana and Splendor class in the Daggerheart Hell's Bells session, but I'm not sure that it'll be also put up.

 

[Thourne]

The symmetry won't be maintained, and that's a good thing. In 4e, while it occasionally led to innovation ... like the Avenger, for example, it led to a lot of grid filling, see the never-ending arguments about a Martial Controller or the Ardent (I think that was the Psionic Leader).

I've seen attempts to codify and name a class for every possible 2 domain combos, but I don't think that that should happen, lol.

That said, the Void currently has 4 classes.

Witch - Sage and Dread*
Warlock - Grace and Dread*
Brawler - Bone and Valor
Assassin - Blade and Midnight

The last Darrington Q&A suggested that they are updating the Void this week with the Bloodhunter (Blade and Blood*). There was also a custom Arcana and Splendor class in the Daggerheart Hell's Bells session, but I'm not sure that it'll be also put up.

Hopefully soon they will finally add the Blood Hunter and Blood domain that was teased like 2 months ago.

 

[Aldarc]

The symmetry won't be maintained, and that's a good thing. In 4e, while it occasionally led to innovation ... like the Avenger, for example, it led to a lot of grid filling, see the never-ending arguments about a Martial Controller or the Ardent (I think that was the Psionic Leader).

I don't see what the problem is with the Ardent. While there was arguably "grid-filling," it also opened up and showcased new design space for classes. So not just the Avenger, but also the Warlord, the Shaman, and the Warden. And it's not like WoTC was afraid to create classes that filled the same Power Source + Role (e.g., Rogue/Ranger, Warlock/Sorcerer, Artificer/Bard, etc.).

 

[Vael]

I don't see what the problem is with the Ardent. While there was arguably "grid-filling," it also opened up and showcased new design space for classes. So not just the Avenger, but also the Warlord, the Shaman, and the Warden. And it's not like WoTC was afraid to create classes that filled the same Power Source + Role (e.g., Rogue/Ranger, Warlock/Sorcerer, Artificer/Bard, etc.).

... TBH, I just didn't want to dunk (more) on the Runepriest or Seeker, lol.

That said, 4e Psionics ... were messy, though the Psion is probably the worst for it. Because a few powers scaled off stats and the power point cost, a lot of low level powers stayed relevant until upper tiers and could become quite spammable.