Damn fool question about Quicken

[Piratecat]

I'm chatting with a friend, and he's under the impression that sorcerers can use quicken as a metamagic feat. I'd swear that they can't, because metamagic feats used by sorcerers expand spells to full actions (or whatever they're called.) Unfortunately I must be blind, because I'm not finding the rules reference either way in the core rules or T&B.

Can someone please point me in the right direction? 3.0 or 3.5, either one is fine.

In addition, can you use more than one metamagic feat on a spell in 3.5? Can sorcerers cast a heightened extended empowered spell, or are they limited to just one enhancement? If they can use more than one, does it still take just the full action?

I feel stupid asking, but I (and my feeble rules-finding skills) appreciate the help.

 

[FrankTrollman]

Here's the deal:

* In the 3rd edition rules as written there is nothing to stop a Sorcerer form using Quicken.

* In 3.5, the rules explicitly forbid characters from using Quicken as spontaneous casters.

* Skip Williams maintains that the PHB in 3rd edition always said that Sorcerers could not use Quicken and this is in fact not true. This caused threads on the WotC boards that were hundreds of threads long, as Skip repeatedly justified his ruling based on text which did not appear in the PHB.

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From a game balance standpoint - Sorcerers are weaker than Wizards regardless of whether they can use Quicken or not. And the inability to use Quicken actually represents a very minor kick in the pants compared to the fact that they get less spells per day at critical early levels and less versatility at high levels when spells per day no longer particularly matter.

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In 3.5 you can use any number of metamagics on a single spell - but each one can only be used once each. The time increase for spellcasting with metamagic is a one-time deal.

-Frank

 

[Pax]

Sorcerors can use it ... but they get screwed if they do. The "Sorceror using a metamagic" time-increase is calculated after the effects of any metamagic is applied.

Thus, for a Sorceror, a Quickened Fireball takes a full-round action (don't ask me WHY, but, WOTC insists it DOES).

 

[FrankTrollman]

Sorcerors can use it ... but they get screwed if they do. The "Sorceror using a metamagic" time-increase is calculated after the effects of any metamagic is applied.

Thus, for a Sorceror, a Quickened Fireball takes a full-round action (don't ask me WHY, but, WOTC insists it DOES).

That's the rub, of course. If that were true, Sorcerers could use Quicken just fine.

The Metamagic Time Increase is:

Old Casting Time -> New Casting Time
If Free Action -> Still Free Action
If Standard Action -> Full Round Action (but not actually a Full Round Spell)
If Full Round Spell or Longer -> +1 Full Round to casting time.

So if there was any sort of linearity to the process, it would go to a Free Action and then stay there. Or if the process went the other way it would go up to a Full Round and then back down to a Free Action.

There's no "reason" that Sorcerers can't quicken in 3rd edition - unless you count Skip Williams' say-so.

In 3.5, the Quicken feat says: "This feat can't be applied to any spell cast spontaneously" - which is pretty much the end of that.

-Frank

 

[Kae'Yoss]

* In the 3rd edition rules as written there is nothing to stop a Sorcerer form using Quicken.

I might add that it probably was intended that way from the start, as the Shugenja from OA (which was released quite early-on), can't use quicken, either.

 

[Limper]

If the sorcerer takes Arcane Preperation(T+B) they can use Quicken in that slot.

 

[Caliban]

Unfortunately, Frank pretty much has it wrong here. In 3.0 or 3.5, it takes a full round to apply a metamagic feat to a spell.

Text from page 78 of the 3.0 PHB: "...The sorcerer or bard, therefore, must take more time to cast a metamagic spell...than a regular spell. If it's normal casting time is one action, casting a metamagic spell is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard."

That's how long it takes to cast the spell, regardless of the metamagic feat.

It's stated pretty clearly (they MUST take more time), but they should have had an example or statement about combining it with the Quicken feat to avoid confusion. And that is what they meant, as every game designers who was aked about it agreed on that interpretation, not just Skip Williams.

They clarified this in the Quicken feat itself in 3.5.

As for multiple metamagic feats by a sorcerer, go ahead. It still takes a full-round action to cast a metamagic spell, not matter how many metamagic feats you are applying. In 3.0 you can apply the same feat more than once, in 3.5 you can only apply each metamagic feat once.

 

[FrankTrollman]

Caliban, as usual, is completely wrong.

Note that a Quickened Mgic Missile is itself a unique spell with a casting time of 1 free action.

Note also that you can extend Feather Fall and not increase the casting time - because the "more time" only applies to spells with a casting time of 1 standard action or more. Again, this is as per page 78.

To this day, the change to 3.5 is indeed a rules rewrite, not a "clarification". Regardless of what they may or may not have originally intended.

-Frank

 

[Caliban]

Caliban, as usual, is completely wrong.
[/b]

You're new here, aren't you?

I've warned you about these personal attacks before. Show some maturity before it's too late.

Note that a Quickened Mgic Missile is itself a unique spell with a casting time of 1 free action.

No, no it's not. It's still a magic missile spell, it's just had it's casting time adjusted by the metamagic feat.

Unfortunately, casting a metamagic spell takes a full round action for a sorcerer. They must take more time to cast it. It's pretty black and white, as per page 78.

Note also that you can extend Feather Fall and not increase the casting time - because the "more time" only applies to spells with a casting time of 1 standard action or more. Again, this is as per page 78.

I can see where you would get that interpretation, but that's pretty obviously an oversight and not their intent. It's intented that it always take more time for a sorcerer to spontaneously cast a metamagic spell.

To this day, the change to 3.5 is indeed a rules rewrite, not a "clarification". Regardless of what they may or may not have originally intended.

-Frank

In your opinion. Things are not as black and white as you seem to think.

 

[FrankTrollman]

I can see where you would get that interpretation, but that's pretty obviously an oversight and not their intent. It's intented that it always take more time for a sorcerer to spontaneously cast a metamagic spell.

How come every time you get into a rules argument with me you have to hand wave and say "the literal wording of the rules doesn't matter, only what I think the rules should have said matters." -?

I mean, why even have written rules if the only important rules exist inside your head?

-Frank