Damn fool question about Quicken
- Thread starter Piratecat
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That's not what I said. You really need to stop making stuff up Frank.FrankTrollman said:
You have to look at the intent of the rules as well as their literal meaning. The rules say that sorcerers must take longer to cast a metamagic spell, black and white, no way to argue it. Then they give a few examples of how this works, but leave out one situation: spells that have a free action casting time.
They already made their intent obvious, why try to abuse it?
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FrankTrollman
First Post
Because intent is subjective. Literal wording is objective. While there can be, and often is, ambiguity in literal wording - the fact remains that if we get into a discussion of what text "should say" as being a distinct entity from what it does say - we are caught in an endless argument.
You see, I can claim that it should say anything at all. It actually does say that Standard Action Spells are increased to Full Round Actions, and that spells with a casting time of 1 full round or more have their casting time increased by 1 Full Round.
That's what it really says. Now I could claim that it should say that Sorcerers who attempt Quickening turn purple - but it doesn't say that. Caliban claims that it should say that Free Action spells are increased to some arbitrary action type that he made up - but it doesn't say that either.
The set of what things don't really say is infinitely large - and since the support for all of them is zero they are all equally likely.
Thus, if rules arguments are going to mean anything - they have to center on what the rules say. Not on our opinions of what they "obviously meant". As of course, that could include the "purple sorcerers" example.
-Frank
Kae'Yoss
First Post
Take a break, you two.
As for rewrite against clarification: Some of the rules are rewritten, and some are merely clarified. I consider everything that has been actually stated in another wizard book but hasn't been spelled out like that in the 3.0 core rules, a clarification if explicitly stated in 3.5. Amongst these are:
Spontaneous casting and Quicken spell doesn't work. This is supported by Oriental Adventures (Shugenja), and the Epic Level Handbook.
Also, (on a side note), the fact that natural 20 and 1 matter not only on attack rolls, but saving throws as well. This was in Deities and Demigods.
As for rewrite against clarification: Some of the rules are rewritten, and some are merely clarified. I consider everything that has been actually stated in another wizard book but hasn't been spelled out like that in the 3.0 core rules, a clarification if explicitly stated in 3.5. Amongst these are:
Spontaneous casting and Quicken spell doesn't work. This is supported by Oriental Adventures (Shugenja), and the Epic Level Handbook.
Also, (on a side note), the fact that natural 20 and 1 matter not only on attack rolls, but saving throws as well. This was in Deities and Demigods.
FrankTrollman
First Post
That was a new rule in Dieties and Demigods though. In the Core Rules, a Save was a form of Check - and thus did not automatically fail on a 1 any more than a 20th level rogue with 23 ranks in Use Rope could fail to tie his shoes.
And since it causes some incredibly bad things to happen with chain summonings - I find this particular "rules change" to be a terrible idea and refuse to play with it.
-Frank
And D&D is not objective. The rules are not objective.FrankTrollman said:
You could, but you can only reasonably claim a few things.
Some of us who play this game are adults, and are quite capable of making reasonable, subjective judgements based on our knowledge of the rules. It makes clearing up these ambiquities relatively simple in most cases.
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You could, but that wouldn't be a reasonable claim. Some of us can tell the difference, you see.
What does it say.. Oh yes: "The sorcerer or bard, therefore, MUST take more time to cast a metamagic spell."
Pretty objective if you ask me. They MUST take more time. Not they should take more time, not they can take more time, they MUST take more time.
Or do you want to claim that they really meant something else than what they said Frank? Are you going to make that subjective claim? Or are you going to ignore the objective statement that they must take more time?
Now Frank, you are making stuff up again. If the rules arguements are to mean anything, they MUST include a consideration of the intent of the rules, or they are worthless. Otherwise they devolve into pointless excercises of who can find the most abusable bit of ambigous text.
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QUICKEN SPELL [METAMAGIC]
Benefit: Casting a quickened spell is a free action. You can perform another action, even casting another spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell. You may cast only one quickened spell per round. A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full round action cannot be quickened. A quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell’s actual level. Casting a quickened spell doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.
Special: This feat can’t be applied to any spell cast spontaneously (including sorcerer spells, bard spells, and cleric or druid spells cast spontaneously), since applying a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell automatically increases the casting time to a full-round action.
http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/Feats.rtf
Benefit: Casting a quickened spell is a free action. You can perform another action, even casting another spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell. You may cast only one quickened spell per round. A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full round action cannot be quickened. A quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell’s actual level. Casting a quickened spell doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.
Special: This feat can’t be applied to any spell cast spontaneously (including sorcerer spells, bard spells, and cleric or druid spells cast spontaneously), since applying a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell automatically increases the casting time to a full-round action.
http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/Feats.rtf
AFAIK, all previous versions of D&D, or at least AD&D and AD&D, Second Edition, had the 1/20 automatic failure and success for saving throws. The authors of the Third Edition core rules books are on record stating that it was an oversight that the rule was not included in the books. The 3.5 D&D revision corrected the oversight, restoring a rule that has been a part of D&D for more than 20 years. But YMMV.FrankTrollman said:
