Dancing Ability +4 Modifier???

[Vraille Darkfang]

Hello All,

Maybe you can help me.

My character (12th lvl Ftr) recently acquired a +2 Dancing Scimitar (his favored weapon). I was shocked when I found out it is the equivalnt of a +6 weapon as the DMG lists Dancing as a +4 mod. Is this right? Dancing is more powerful than Speed (+3 mod)? I hope this is an errata. Am I missing something?

You must use a Standard Action to start is Dancing (thus losing your first attack in a round). After that you get 3 rounds of it attacking on its own, but only at your BAB + its enhancement bonus, thus losing all your modifiers (in my case +5 Str, Wpn Focus, Spec, Gtr Focus, & Imp Crit). Then on the 4th round you have to get ahold of the weapon or it falls to the floor on the next round. Plus, after you realease it, you still aren't considered armed with it, so you have to draw another weapon (I have Quick-Draw, so this doesn't bother me).

Finally, for you math people out there, I crunched the numbers, comparing my current +1 Flaming Burst Scimitar to the +1 FB & the +2 Dancing to just having a +3 Scimitar of Speed (equal to the +2 Dancing). My results showed (on average) duriing the first few rounds of combat I'd do about 252 points of damage using both the Scimitars; 278 using just my Flaming Burst Scimitar & a whopping 370 points if I used a +3 Scimitar of Speed. Note: as a creature's AC goes above 25 the average damge goes down & the difference between the three examples gets wider. The Dancing becomes less likely to hit, while the extra Speed attack helps keeps average damage higher.

Please help me see why Dancing is a +4 modifier,

Any help is appreciated,
Vraille Darkfang.

 

[CalrinAlshaw]

It is a +4 modifier because it allows you to attack someone for 3 rounds with a weapon and then whip out another weapon and start attacking. If you decide to forgo a shield you could use your offhand just to release and catch the weapon then whip out a shield for 1 round or something. In other words, it's a set of free attacks.

Calrin Alshaw

 

[Stalker0]

You get another set of attacks with your own, that's HUGE!!

+1 wounding dancing weapon, there's the pain.

 

[Plane Sailing]

After all, Speed only gives you 1 extra attack (and then only on full attacks). Dancing lets you get your full iterative BAB-worth of attacks in addition to whatever else you want to smite the opponents with.

frankly I'm surprised that Speed even rates a +3 - I'd have thought that +2 is more likely. It was certainly overpriced when it was a +4 enhancement

 

[kpdezend]

I hope this is an errata. Am I missing something?
Finally, for you math people out there, I crunched the numbers...
Please help me see why Dancing is a +4 modifier,
Any help is appreciated,
Vraille Darkfang.

+4 is not too much, not too little. I have a 21st level Ranger who if he had 2 dancing Swords, 1 dancing Scythe, 1 animated shield of bashing, and a long-sword in each hand, and then use a matrix I created telling him how much to power attack for a given AC, does horrendous amounts of damage. For AC 10, expect about 835 points of damage for his peak damage (he's gotta let go of all of those weapons!). For AC 20, expect about 487 points, for AC 30, 227. For higher AC than that, it did not make sense (for him) to power attack, so I did not push out the table higher.

Needless to say, that much damage would unbalance the party.... so I only made the Dancing Scythe... which ended up being too damaging as well.

Hope that helps,

- Kent -

 

[Vraille Darkfang]

It is a +4 modifier because it allows you to attack someone for 3 rounds with a weapon and then whip out another weapon and start attacking. If you decide to forgo a shield you could use your offhand just to release and catch the weapon then whip out a shield for 1 round or something. In other words, it's a set of free attacks.

Calrin Alshaw

Yes, but I lose my first attack in a combat as I use a standrd action to begin the dancing. My first attack almost always hits and I do 1d6+10 +1d6 fire damage. I average around 20 points of damage with that first attack. The Dancing weapon then needs to make up for it over the next three rounds. But all it does is 1d6+2 damage at a much lower attack bonus. I lose the +5 hit/damage from strength, the +2 hit & Damage from feats and the greater critical range. Against high AC opponents these attacks seldom hit, and the average amount of extra damage from those 3 rounds doesn't make up for that first lost attack.

Basically, what I'm asking is why +4? I mean I just got a +6 WEAPON! My character should be doing the happy halfling dance. Not "Really, +6 huh? I guess there are times I'll be able to use it." I'm not questioning that its a nice ability, just rather it's the equivalent to having a +2 Flaming Burst, Shocking Burst weapon. It seems to be overpriced, that's all.

As for Speed only giving ONE extra attack. I have a 21 Str, Wpn Focus, Wpn Spec, Gtr Wpn Focus, Imp Crit. I have an extra +7 to hit & +7 damge (14 on a crit 30% of the time). Over the long run, a Speed weapon (only a +3 mod), would allow me to consderably more damage than a Dancing weapon combined with my current weapon.

As both a Player & a DM, I think the d20 team did a good job with the rules, overall. I don't want to change anything into a house rule until I understand why they did what they did. I thinking of making Dancing a +2 mod. From everything I can see this is more balenced. I'd like the people on this list to show me the Dirty Tricks that can be done with Dancing, so I'm not walking blind into my own campaigns.

As for the +1 Wounding Dancing Blade. Ain't that a +7 Sword? +1 Enchancement, +4 Dancing, +2 Wounding. For +7 I can come up with a lot nastier combos than that.

Thanks for the input
Vraille Darkfang

 

[Plane Sailing]

FWIW We have *always* played it that the dancing sword attacks *just as if you were still wielding it*, so it would still use your str and feat and magic bonuses to hit and damage.

Like this there certainly wouldn't be any problem seeing it as a +4 bonus weapon.

I can see your argument, maybe your gaming group ought to just decide what makes more sense - plain BAB and +2 equiv, all bonuses and +4 equiv or plain BAB and +4 equiv. I hope you can come to some equitable agreement.

Cheers

 

[Vraille Darkfang]

+4 is not too much, not too little. I have a 21st level Ranger who if he had 2 dancing Swords, 1 dancing Scythe, 1 animated shield of bashing, and a long-sword in each hand, and then use a matrix I created telling him how much to power attack for a given AC, does horrendous amounts of damage. For AC 10, expect about 835 points of damage for his peak damage (he's gotta let go of all of those weapons!). For AC 20, expect about 487 points, for AC 30, 227. For higher AC than that, it did not make sense (for him) to power attack, so I did not push out the table higher.

- Kent -

Are you sure you got that right? First the DMG says an Animated Shield PROTECTS the character as if he were wielding it. It says nothing about it being able to perform a Shield Bash on its own. As a Shield Bash is a normal type of weapon attack, the DMG would normally say if it could perform a Shield Bash for you, but it is unclear. More clarifications to bug Wizards about.

As for the rest;

Round 1- No attacks, you got to release the Dancing Scythe as a Standard Action.

Round 2- Scythe attacks at +21/+16/+11/+6 + the enhancement of the Scythe, does 2d4 + enhancement bonus. You, draw Dancing Sword #1 as Move Action, Draw Dancing Sword #2 as second move action (unless you have Quick Draw), in which case you may draw both weapons & get a Full Attack Action.

Round 3-Scythe Attacks again, you release Sword #1 as Standard Action, then draw Longsword #1, thus you get no attacks.

Round 4-Scythe Attacks, Dancing Sword #1 Attacks, You release Dancing Sword #2 and draw Longsword #2.

Round 5-Scythe Attaks, Dancing Sword #1 Attacks, Dancing Sword #2 Attacks. You, have to put up your longswords to grab your scythe, otherwise it falls to the ground at the end of the round.

Round 6-Dancing Sword #1 Attacks, Dancing Sword #2 attacks, you have to put up scythe & begin Draw Longsword #1 and Grab Dancing Sword #1 as it falls at the end of this round. If you have quick draw, you can get a full round of attacks with Longsword #1 & Dancing Sword #1, but then it doesn't get to do it's Dancing Attacks (does it).

Other rounds- You barely get to attack as you spend all your actions activating and grabbing various Dancing Weapons, unless you let them fall to the floor, in which case the flow of combat can move you away from the +5 weapon (minimum). Chances of nothing running off with it, pretty low.

Your 21st level, but still. You just got 3 Dancing weapons (that's 3 +5 weapons! I doubt they're just +1 either, +1 is kind of weak by 21st level). Then you got a +4 Shield (minimum), Plus whatever your 2 Magical Longswords are. Most of your cash just went into weapons.

Or I am incorrect about something (particullary the Animated Shield Bash), if you can do that my Fighter just got real nasty.

Vraille Darkfang

 

[Vraille Darkfang]

FWIW We have *always* played it that the dancing sword attacks *just as if you were still wielding it*, so it would still use your str and feat and magic bonuses to hit and damage.

Cheers

Your'e right, if I got to use all my other modifiers, Feats, Str, Etc; then a Dancing Weapon would be a no-brainer. My problem is that the Dancing Special Ability SPECIFICALY states that "As a standard action, a dancing weapon can be loosed to attack on its own. It fights for 4 rounds using the base attack bonus of the one who loosed it and then drops. (from the SRD)". This rather specifically implies that under the D&D 3 (& 3.5) normal rules, a Dancing Weapon only gets the BAB of the wielder, plus the enhancment of the weapon. It'll also get situtaional modifers, such as Cover, Concealment, Higher Ground, etc. While not specifically stated, I'd guess it's be similar to an Animated Object & would thus gain benefit from spells such as Bless, Prayer, and a Bard's Inspire ability. In effect, as written, it isn't worth the +4 mod. That's my problem. If this game ends & I wish to bring this character into another game, I'll need to explain this to my new DM.

I was just hoping there was a misprint somewhere, either it wasn't a +4 mod, or you got to use more of you feats & stuff while it was Dancing.

But, thanks for your suggestion, I'll talk to my DM (we've already agreed the +4 seems way overpriced), and suggest the two options you mentioned (I'd already thought about asking him to make it a +2 mod).

P.S. Why's it Dance for 4 rounds? How they come up with that number? Look in your 2nd ed DMG for the answer.

Later,
Vraille Darkfang

 

[kpdezend]

I'm at work, so I will do this as quick as I can. I do not have my spreadsheet or anything with me, so this will all have to be off the top of my head.

Are you sure you got that right? First the DMG says an Animated Shield PROTECTS the character as if he were wielding it. It says nothing about it being able to perform a Shield Bash on its own. As a Shield Bash is a normal type of weapon attack, the DMG would normally say if it could perform a Shield Bash for you, but it is unclear. More clarifications to bug Wizards about.
Vraille Darkfang

I think this is right. I ended up doing a dumbed down version of this in combat, and the first set of baddies I came across I with this combo, actually really got it bad, being hated species and my Scythe was also a weapon of hunting, and my epic level feat was the one that makes any weapon you wield bane against all hated species... combo that with a few nat 20s in the first full attack, and I did over 300 pts of damage... I ended up not using the shield because I was afraid of being killed myself.

As for the rest;
Round 1- No attacks, you got to release the Dancing Scythe as a Standard Action.
Vraille Darkfang

vYeah, but if you move next to your opponent, you only have a standard action anyway, Release Scythe and quickdraw other two swords.

Round 2- Scythe attacks at +21/+16/+11/+6 + the enhancement of the Scythe, does 2d4 + enhancement bonus. You, draw Dancing Sword #1 as Move Action, Draw Dancing Sword #2 as second move action (unless you have Quick Draw), in which case you may draw both weapons & get a Full Attack Action.
Vraille Darkfang

This is one of the reasons why I was going to not get the two +1 dancing swords, but I was going to try to talk my DM into being able to release both as a standard action... or just use the swords specifically when I needed to ramp up massive damage in my one killer round... like when fighting something with fast healing 150...

Round 5-Scythe Attaks, Dancing Sword #1 Attacks, Dancing Sword #2 Attacks. You, have to put up your longswords to grab your scythe, otherwise it falls to the ground at the end of the round.
Vraille Darkfang

In our campaign, we have house ruled that quickdraw means that you can also 'quick put away', which works out very nice for this combo.

Yes, I spent most of my cash paying our magic item makers to make the items, we also play that you can spend your own XP, so the characters with item creation feats do not end up levels behind everyone else.

Like I said, I only got the scythe (and the shield, which I have decided to just use for defense after the cold look I got from my DM the next adventure when I hinted at using it.)

- Kent -

ps: sorry for any misspelling errors, I gotta get back to work.