Dancing Ability +4 Modifier???

[Vraille Darkfang]

I think this is right. I ended up doing a dumbed down version of this in combat, and the first set of baddies I came across I with this combo, actually really got it bad, being hated species and my Scythe was also a weapon of hunting, and my epic level feat was the one that makes any weapon you wield bane against all hated species... combo that with a few nat 20s in the first full attack, and I did over 300 pts of damage... I ended up not using the shield because I was afraid of being killed myself.

I'm not sure what a Hunting Weapon does, or if a Hated Enemy is the same thing or worse than a Ranger's Favored Enemy. But, do you get all your Favored Enemy bonuses to hit & damage with a Dancing Weapon? Or your Epic Feat? The DMG is unclear as it states something bout being still armed with the weapon for spells and effects purposes (all negative effects in the description), yet not armed for other purposes.

Plus 300 points of damage to your favored enemy isn't realistic of average damage, nor is an aboundace of Nat 20's. A Crit only happens (statistically) 5% of the time with a scythe, its x4 damage modifier will way off-set the average damage if you get lucky and score multiple crits. Subtract all that extra favored enemy damage, and average out that x4 crit damage, and you'll lower the damge total by over 100 points I'll bet.

I actually worked out the average damage (statistically) over the long run & found that (in my case), the Dancing Weapon actually Lowers my average damage for the next several levels.

Yeah, but if you move next to your opponent, you only have a standard action anyway, Release Scythe and quickdraw other two swords.

Unless your typcial tatic is Round 1: Charge. Round 2: Full Attack. Round 3: Repeat Round 2 until Dead then charge to next foe. Thus losing that first attack really hurts. And the extra attacks in the later rounds are too small to make up for it.

Thanks for that info though, it gives me something to consider before just making Dancing less than a +4 mod.

Vraille Darkfang, also at work

 

[kpdezend]

I'm not sure what a Hunting Weapon does, or if a Hated Enemy is the same thing or worse than a Ranger's Favored Enemy. But, do you get all your Favored Enemy bonuses to hit & damage with a Dancing Weapon? Or your Epic Feat? The DMG is unclear as it states something bout being still armed with the weapon for spells and effects purposes (all negative effects in the description), yet not armed for other purposes.

Plus 300 points of damage to your favored enemy isn't realistic of average damage, nor is an abundance of Nat 20's. A Crit only happens (statistically) 5% of the time with a scythe, its x4 damage modifier will way off-set the average damage if you get lucky and score multiple crits. Subtract all that extra favored enemy damage, and average out that x4 crit damage, and you'll lower the damage total by over 100 points I'll bet.

I actually worked out the average damage (statistically) over the long run & found that (in my case), the Dancing Weapon actually Lowers my average damage for the next several levels.

Vraille Darkfang, also at work

Hunting = Double Fovored Enemy Damage

Yes, Favored Enemy = Hated Species, I just call them the same thing (easier on my brain)

The way that I understand it, it attacks just like it was you wielding it (add in strength, attack bonus, favored enemy, etc), otherwise you are right, I think +4 is way too much.

Glad to help.

 

[porthos]

Scalability

The big benefit is that Dancing weapons get more powerful as you level up because they get all your multiple attacks. That's *huge*! With Quick Draw, by round two you're getting *double* your number of attacks for four rounds! I don't know about you, but 40 attacks over four rounds sure sounds a lot better than 20, even without feats and such tacked on.

It's one of the few abilities that advances with you at no additional cost, hence the +4.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

The big benefit is that Dancing weapons get more powerful as you level up because they get all your multiple attacks. That's *huge*! With Quick Draw, by round two you're getting *double* your number of attacks for four rounds! I don't know about you, but 40 attacks over four rounds sure sounds a lot better than 20, even without feats and such tacked on.

It's one of the few abilities that advances with you at no additional cost, hence the +4.

This is how I've always seen it, though only on paper as I've never owned a dancing weapon as a player, or given one as a DM.

Imagine two scenarios. In both cases the PC goes into combat with the dancing weapon in his off-hand, and wearing a buckler strapped to his off-hand.

5th-level looks like this:

Round 1: Move into combat range, release dancing weapon.
Round 2: Attack at +5 (plus mods), dancing weapon attacks at +5 (plus enhancement bonus).
Round 3: Ditto.
Round 4: Ditto.
Round 5: Attack at +5 (plus mods), grab dancing weapon.
Round 6: Release dancing weapon.
Round 7: Go to round 2.

20th-level looks more like this:

Round 1: Move into combat range, release dancing weapon.
Round 2: Attack at +20/+15/+10/+5 (plus mods), dancing weapon attacks at +20/+15/+10/+5 (plus enhancement).
Round 3: Ditto.
Round 4: Ditto.
Round 5: Attack at +20 (plus mods), grab dancing weapon.
Round 6: Release dancing weapon.
Round 7: Go to Round 2.

In the 20th-level case, you are giving up 1 attack in Round 1, plus 4 attacks in Round 7 (and each iteration thereafter), in exchange for a total of twelve extra attacks over the course of 3 rounds.

12 extra attacks. Even if you subtract the attacks you're giving up, that's a net +7 attacks.

Speed can at best give you 3 extra attacks over the same 3 rounds.

This looks easily like a +4 enchantment, although I probably wouldn't get one until the late teens, level-wise, because that's when it's at its strongest.

 

[Scion]

So... a few extra attacks, hitting only 5% of the time each, dealing a pitiful amount of damage.. and this is worth +4 how?

I would definately rather have speed.. one extra attack a round at my highest bonus with all of my various pluses and it costs a lesser bonus.. (although I still dont like speed very much even )

Really, at that point the moving up and attacking that single attack is probably worth as much as most of those attacks anyway.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Hello All,

Maybe you can help me.

My character (12th lvl Ftr) recently acquired a +2 Dancing Scimitar (his favored weapon). I was shocked when I found out it is the equivalnt of a +6 weapon as the DMG lists Dancing as a +4 mod. Is this right? Dancing is more powerful than Speed (+3 mod)? I hope this is an errata. Am I missing something?

You must use a Standard Action to start is Dancing (thus losing your first attack in a round). After that you get 3 rounds of it attacking on its own, but only at your BAB + its enhancement bonus, thus losing all your modifiers (in my case +5 Str, Wpn Focus, Spec, Gtr Focus, & Imp Crit). Then on the 4th round you have to get ahold of the weapon or it falls to the floor on the next round. Plus, after you realease it, you still aren't considered armed with it, so you have to draw another weapon (I have Quick-Draw, so this doesn't bother me).

Finally, for you math people out there, I crunched the numbers, comparing my current +1 Flaming Burst Scimitar to the +1 FB & the +2 Dancing to just having a +3 Scimitar of Speed (equal to the +2 Dancing). My results showed (on average) duriing the first few rounds of combat I'd do about 252 points of damage using both the Scimitars; 278 using just my Flaming Burst Scimitar & a whopping 370 points if I used a +3 Scimitar of Speed. Note: as a creature's AC goes above 25 the average damge goes down & the difference between the three examples gets wider. The Dancing becomes less likely to hit, while the extra Speed attack helps keeps average damage higher.

Please help me see why Dancing is a +4 modifier,

Any help is appreciated,
Vraille Darkfang.

There are two possibilities - either the enchantment IS worth it so you keep the weapon, or it's NOT worth it and you hock it off.

Weapons not being worth the price you paid for them are only a problem if you actually paid the price in the first place...

 

[Zaruthustran]

Here's the SRD text. Key points are: only attacks at BAB, and has a 4-round "cool off" period before it can be loosed again.

Dancing: As a standard action, a dancing weapon can be loosed to attack on its own. It fights for 4 rounds using the base attack bonus of the one who loosed it and then drops. While dancing, it cannot make attacks of opportunity, and the person who activated it is not considered armed with the weapon. In all other respects, it is considered wielded or attended by the creature for all maneuvers and effects that target items. While dancing, it takes up the same space as the activating character and can attack adjacent foes (weapons with reach can attack opponents up to 10 feet away). The dancing weapon accompanies the person who activated it everywhere, whether she moves by physical or magical means. If the wielder who loosed it has an unoccupied hand, she can grasp it while it is attacking on its own as a free action; when so retrieved the weapon can’t dance (attack on its own) again for 4 rounds.

Strong transmutation; CL 15th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, animate objects; Price +4 bonus.

Totally not worth +4. Unless...

I think the best use of this thing is on a spiked chain. The chain has reach, so it can attack non-adjacent foes. It doesn't matter if you're not proficient in the spiked chain since it is "using the base attack bonus of the one who loosed it"--no nonproficiency penalty.

But you don't want to make just regular attacks with it. At only BAB (not counting Str, feats, etc) you most likely won't hit, and if you do hit, you'll do only a little damage. Instead, make Disarm and Trip attempts.

I mean, why not? What's the enemy going to do--counter-trip your dancing spiked chain?

Best part is that you're not considered armed with the weapon, but the weapon is considered wielded by you. So it counts as a two-handed weapon (for disarm attempts), but there's no consequences if the attempt fails. Not sure how the trip would work--what's the Strength of a dancing weapon?

Even if you skip the funky disarms and such, the dancing weapon can still make an Aid Another attack. That gives you +2 Attack or +2 Defense, your choice. Not a bad option for the last few iterative attacks that would miss anyway.

But even after all that... not worth +4. I'd peg it at +3, maybe. And it'd be worth +4 if, as is often the case, the author used "BAB" when he meant "melee attack bonus".

-z

 

[Marshall]

20th-level looks more like this:

Round 1: Move into combat range, release dancing weapon.
Round 2: Attack at +20/+15/+10/+5 (plus mods), dancing weapon attacks at +20/+15/+10/+5 (plus enhancement).
Round 3: Ditto.
Round 4: Ditto.
Round 5: Attack at +20 (plus mods), grab dancing weapon.
Round 6: Release dancing weapon.
Round 7: Go to Round 2.

In the 20th-level case, you are giving up 1 attack in Round 1, plus 4 attacks in Round 7 (and each iteration thereafter), in exchange for a total of twelve extra attacks over the course of 3 rounds.

12 extra attacks. Even if you subtract the attacks you're giving up, that's a net +7 attacks.

Speed can at best give you 3 extra attacks over the same 3 rounds.

The Speed gives you five extra attacks over that time. You left out rounds 5 and 6 where Speed is still working but Dancing isnt.

 

[Taren Seeker]

We used to play it that your feats ie: WF and Spec still count for the weapons. We had a Fighter/Wizard who had 2 dancing short swords and 2 Gloves of Storing, activate swords and store them. He would precast Tenser's, release both from the gloves as a free action, quickdraw 2 more shortswords, full attack, with GTWF that's 15 attacks in round 1, 16 if hasted.

At that point we didn't worry about the swords being active for 'only' 4 rounds, 3 if the DM decided to count the storing as 1 round of dancing

Now, even if you don't go with feats applying to the weapon, using a Glove makes the +4 Dancing worth it. It still isn't a lot of damage unless you get some good enhancements on them which of course is very expensive.

 

[Ruvion]

In all other respects, it is considered wielded or attended by the creature for all maneuvers and effects that target items.

I don't know...being considered wielded by the creature seems to imply all relevant mods such as from feats and what not should apply to the dancing weapon. I always considered a dancing weapon as summoning an invulnerable insta warrior that fights like you using the dancing weapon, but can not make attacks of opportunity.