Daring Outlaw...A Too Powerful?

[satori01]

So in Complete Scoundrel the book introduces some new feats that let a multi class character combine the levels of 2 specific class together to determine the effectiveness of a class ability.

Ok we have seen that before, but the powerup given by the Feats are almost no brainers. The Monk/Pally or Pally/Bard type feats just help mitigate,(and often times not well), the wonkiness of multi classing certain classes.

Daring Outlaw lets a Swashbuckler/Rogue combine both class levels together in terms of Sneak Attack Damage/Grace/ and Reflex save.
Mmmm OK, I think I could do that. If you were playing a Swashbuckler why not take the feat and 3 levels of Rogue. Evasion + Sneak Attack versus losing out on the 20 level ability to do 2 points of Con dmg. Con Dmg is big...but Sneak Attack across the life of a character is better.

The book has plenty of those feats:

Ascetic Stalker: add Monk/Ninja levels together to determine Unarmed Strike Damage, Ki uses for Ninja Class, and what the Unarmed strike effects. Perfect for a dip into monk, to get Improved Grapple & Flurry.
Now your Ninja can Invisibly Flurry Shurikens for Sudden Strike and Grapple like a pro to get even more Sudden Strike... and you effectively loss nothing on the Ninja side.

Master Spellthief: Combine Spellthief/ Any Arcane Spell casting class to determine Caster Level & what level spells you can steal. 1 feat and one dip into Spellthief gives you +1d6 Sneak Attack and the ability to steal spells. If I was playing a Beguiler, I would do it in a heart beat, the synergy is too good, plus it helps get you into Arcane Trickster and the like if you so want.

Swift Hunter: Scout & Ranger levels stack for Skirmish bonus and Rangers Favourite Enemy. Again why not take a feat and 1 level of either class to get a nice class ability. Scout and Ranger abilities overlap so much, ultimately you wind up about the same anyway.

Clearly the feats were intended to get little used classes more play, and I would love to use the feats as a player, but some of these are just too attractive.

 

[Rhun]

I don't have the book in question, but I believe there was a thread based on Daring Outlaw not too long ago. The general consensus, if I remember correctly, was that the feat was good, but not overpowered.

 

[hong]

Well, is 17 levels of swashbuckler really that great, even with the +10d6 sneak attack?

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Well, is 17 levels of swashbuckler really that great, even with the +10d6 sneak attack?

I think that would make it barely acceptable.

Now, 17 levels of rogue with three of swashbuckler would be much more pleasant.

Brad

 

[Enforcer]

Yeah, Swashbuckler is still only a 3-level class, even with this feat.

A Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 1/Rogue 16 on the other hand, would be molto awesome with Daring Outlaw. In fact I just did a character just like that in case I ever get to play rather than DM one of these days.

 

[satori01]

Well, is 17 levels of swashbuckler really that great, even with the +10d6 sneak attack?

D10 HD, Full BAB, Int Modifier added to damage, & SA to boot. Not bad at all. Int Mod + Str Mod + full SA is what gets me, a very, very potent combo. Pick up proficiency w/ the Elven Courtblade, and Power Attack w/ Str + Int.

The Ranger/Scout feat is the one that gets me big time. Again why would anyone that wanted to play a Ranger or a Scout not take this feat and the other class?

 

[AnonymousOne]

Yeah, Swashbuckler is still only a 3-level class, even with this feat.

A Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 1/Rogue 16 on the other hand, would be molto awesome with Daring Outlaw. In fact I just did a character just like that in case I ever get to play rather than DM one of these days.

I would really like to see this build. And as I'm not very familiar with the optimizing thing, I'd love to know what makes that level progression so nice.

 

[wayne62682]

Personally I find Daring Outlaw to be a great feat and a step in the right direction. I applaud these new feats that help balance multi-classing characters out since they get screwed by the rules already. I'd love to see the more generic ones become Core in the future, if for no other reason than I don't have to search for them and compile a list of them if I run a Core game.

 

[RigaMortus2]

They need feats that help un-gimp spellcasters that multiclass, something that helps with the loss of caster level. Practiced Spellcaster is a step in the right direction, but I am thinking something like:

Arcane Fighter
Prereq: Able to cast 2nd level arcane spells, 2nd level Fighter or higher
Benefit: Gain +1 level of exisiting arcane spellcasting class for every 2 levels of Fighter you have; Your levels in each arcane spellcasting class that you have count as Fighter levels when qualifying for feats which require specific Fighter levels (ie Weapon Specialization).

Ok, not perfect, I am sure there are holes or exploits to be found in the above, but I hope you get the gist This would encourage the Fighter/Mage builds...

 

[zoroaster100]

I don't generally like prestige classes, at least not as mere bandaids for the shortfalls of multiclassing. So I love the idea of feats which help fix the multi-classing problems.