D&D (2024) Are single class martials still going to be viable in 2024?

[Flamestrike]

Absolutely you can. you just need to stow it before the martial arts attack.

The new rules on weapon switching make this easy to do.

Ergh.

The new rules on 'weapon switching' also allow you to make 3 attacks with 2 scimitars, while holding a shield, and benefiting from both TWF and Dueling.

Lets not go there; they're a mess.

 

[FrogReaver]

Well maybe, but I don't think so.

A Warlock is getting an extra 2d6 Truestrike damage + an extra 5 agonizing blast damage and has more spell slots for smite

You'll have 2 ability score increases - meaning no 20 Cha, and damage feat.
You'll actually have less slots than the single class Paladin, but more of them will be higher level.
You'll do 2d6+2d6(true strike)+5+5(agonizing blast) = 24 Damage on Average, can do 27 long rest smite damage and 45 short rest smite damage from warlock slots

Regular Paladin will do 2d6+1d8+5+4 (gwm) = 20.5 per attack = 41 Damage.
He can do 130.5 Smite damage at level 11.

It takes you 2 short rests to barely out perform divine smite, meanwhile your at will damage is much much lower. Not to mention no auras.

A Dance Bard is getting pretty regular d8 unarmed strikes as a bonus action in addition to Truestrike and more spell slots for smite

Paladins can dual wield just fine, they don't need weird ways to get bonus action attacks. And at level 11 they get a damage bonus to all those attacks.

No it is more than that. Paladin 11 has 10 spell slots (4/3/3). Paladin 4/Bard 7 has 14 (4/3/3/3/1) and they are higher slots.

I said depending on the exact level split.

Then why does it matter that the Sorcerer multiclassed to Warlock? The post I replied to implied that a Sorc2/Warlock3 was way worse than a Sorc 5.

No idea as I cannot see that post.

Well I disagree. Magic beats ..... well beating things with a stick most of the time. If spells like Truestrike did not exist I would agree with you.

True strike isn't good.

Even if I use 4 Sorcerery point to quicken a cantrip - that is on the order of 30 points of damage just from my sorcery points ... or about 10 points per fight with 3 fights a day. On top of that I have 11 more slots for smites (3/3/3/1) which is about twice as much smite damage as a single class Paladin has available at that level.

I'm sorry, this jumping around to 50 different character isn't working. Pick your best multiclass and let's compare.

 

[ECMO3]

No its not.

Post it, and we can compare.

Point buy.

S15 D8 C16 I8 W8 CH17

12.5 DPR (Greataxe) plus potential Cleave

spell slots: 2 warlock short rest spells, 2 Paladin slots

No, its not.

Post it, and we can compare.

Point buy.

S15 D8 C16 I8 W8 CH17

12.5 DPR (Greataxe) plus potential Cleave

spell slots: 2 warlock short rest spells, 2 Paladin slots +1 Divine Smite

Not even close at this level.

Post it, and we can compare.

Point buy.

Yes close.

S15 D8 C16 I8 W8 CH18 Fey Touched

18 DPR (Greataxe) + potential Cleave + potential Hex

spell slots: 2 warlock short rest spells, 3 Paladin spell slots +1 Divine Smite +Hex + Misty Step

Possibly, but by this level the campaign is long over and you've done nothing other than be sucky next to the single classed PC for most of it.

Then why did you ask for a 9th level example?

 

[Flamestrike]

S15 D8 C16 I8 W8 CH17

12.5 DPR (Greataxe) plus potential Cleave

spell slots: 2 warlock short rest spells, 2 Paladin slots

Vengeance Paladin 3

[Hunters mark = Hex.] Strength Stat is 17 (same attacking stats).

You have a few extra 1st level slots per short rest (but I have a free Divine Smite slot, and an extra 1st level spell slot, so that's a wash). I have a Fighting style and better Lay on Hands.

Vengeance paladin is also attacking at Advantage (unlike the Warlock), with zero action economy drastically increasing DPR.

The 'Lock could also (Darkness + Devils sight) for advantage, but that's an entire round to set up, and it screws with other party members, and you cant be concentrating on Hex at the same time (dropping DPR)

Advantage mono-Paladin.

S15 D8 C16 I8 W8 CH17

12.5 DPR (Greataxe) plus potential Cleave

spell slots: 2 warlock short rest spells, 2 Paladin slots +1 Divine Smite

You gained a free divine smite, and advantage to hit (oath of enmity).

The mono Paladin already has the above, and now just also gained GWM (+3 to damage, bonus action cleave attack) and his Str is now 18 (for an extra +1 to hit, and damage).

Advantage mono-Paladin.

Yes close.

S15 D8 C16 I8 W8 CH18 Fey Touched

18 DPR (Greataxe) + potential Cleave + potential Hex

spell slots: 2 warlock short rest spells, 3 Paladin spell slots +1 Divine Smite +Hex + Misty Step

It's not even close at 5th.

Mono Paladin now has 2nd level slots (and spells), a supercharged familiar (find steed) such a Large Celestial Dire Wolf following it around everywhere (with 25 HP of its own, AC 12, and a Slam attack for 1d8+2), and extra attack (doubling its DPR).

Spams Hunters Mark then attacks twice (at advantage, and +7) dealing 3d6+7 damage, plus an angelic Wolf attack dealing 1d8+2 (or healing someone).

The Warlock 1/ Paladin 4 can only look on and cry.

 

[mellored]

A Warlock is getting an extra 2d6 Truestrike

True strike is worse than multi-attack.



It's only slightly better than a firebolt / poison spray at low levels. Worse at high levels.

1d8+3 (7.5) vs 1d12 (6.5).
At high levels with a maul
5d6+5 (22.5) vs 4d12(26)

+ an extra 5 agonizing blast damage

Agonizing blast requires warlock 2, but works on poison spray just as easily.

Or Eldritch Blast, which is still the best.

and has more spell slots for smite

With smite as a bonus action, you're going to have a lot more competition. You can't just stack a lot of low level slots on the same turn anymore.

A Dance Bard is getting pretty regular d8 unarmed strikes as a bonus action in addition to Truestrike and more spell slots for smite.

It's a d8 unarmed attack OR a smite. They don't stack.

A Valor Bard has a better extra attack, allowing both Truestrike and another attack as an action and more spell slots.

That requires both Dex and Cha. So one of the attacks is lagging behind.

 

[mellored]

Absolutely you can. you just need to stow it before the martial arts attack.

The new rules on weapon switching make this easy to do.

It's 1 draw or stow with the attack action. Martial arts, opportunity attacks, polearm master, etc... doesn't give you any extra swaps.

So it's
1st turn; Punch->draw->greataxe
2nd turn: Greataxe->stow->punch

 

[Kinematics]

Maybe I missed it but I didn't see on the TWF Fighter where you gave a % of attacks with advantage due to vex.

This was calculated in the Vex section, which has different accuracy/crit totals for main attack, PAM attack, light weapon bonus attack, martial arts attack, and ranged attack. In the case of TWF with one Vex weapon, it influences the degree to which the offhand weapon gets the advantage bonus. In particular, there's a mathematical formulation based on existing accuracy, so there's no manual % value to set.

I do need to update the math to better reflect its impact on multiple mainhand attacks after the first.

I'll work on updating with the other things you pointed out.

 

[FrogReaver]

This was calculated in the Vex section, which has different accuracy/crit totals for main attack, PAM attack, light weapon bonus attack, martial arts attack, and ranged attack. In the case of TWF with one Vex weapon, it influences the degree to which the offhand weapon gets the advantage bonus. In particular, there's a mathematical formulation based on existing accuracy, so there's no manual % value to set.

I do need to update the math to better reflect its impact on multiple mainhand attacks after the first.

I'll work on updating with the other things you pointed out.

Yea. I seen that section but thought it applied the normal accuracy to the dpr line near the bottom. Maybe it’s just a cell reference off. Or maybe I’m crazy.

 

[Kinematics]

Yea. I seen that section but thought it applied the normal accuracy to the dpr line near the bottom. Maybe it’s just a cell reference off. Or maybe I’m crazy.

Eh, it's OK. That's a bit of a cascade of references.

The bottom damage section refers to the Use Accuracy section.

The Use Accuracy section either uses Advantage flat out if you have advantage set at the top, or the Study Accuracy section which incorporates Studied Attacks.

Studied Attacks only has an effect if you actually have that feature. Otherwise it's going to be the same as the Vex section.

The Vex section builds its accuracy based on which weapons have the Vex mastery (if any), and then combining the base accuracy and the advantage accuracy sections. No Vex weapons means this will be the same as baseline.

This of course doesn't count certain specialized columns. For example, the Heroic Warrior hit always uses advantage, while the Brutal Strike hit always uses baseline.

 

[mellored]

This was calculated in the Vex section, which has different accuracy/crit totals for main attack, PAM attack, light weapon bonus attack, martial arts attack, and ranged attack. In the case of TWF with one Vex weapon, it influences the degree to which the offhand weapon gets the advantage bonus. In particular, there's a mathematical formulation based on existing accuracy, so there's no manual % value to set.

I do need to update the math to better reflect its impact on multiple mainhand attacks after the first.

I'll work on updating with the other things you pointed out.

Did you add any damage from initiative?

Assuming 4 rounds and going first will give you an extra round half the time..
4.5 / 4 = 16.6% extra damage.
/ 20 = 0.56% more damage per Dex.

So advantage on Initiative will be 2.5% more damage.