D&D (2024) Are single class martials still going to be viable in 2024?

[ECMO3]

A level 12 build that is significantly weaker than its mono-classed Paladin buddy for most of the preceding 11 levels

I think a Bard/Sorcerer/Warlock 4 - Paladin 8 is better than most Paladin 11 or 12 you can build. Depending on the party and campaign I think it can even be better to multiclass at level 5.

Multiattack is a pretty key ability, but even that is mitigated to a degree with weapon mastery and truestrike. Is a single class Paladin 11 really better than a Paladin 4-Dance Bard 7 or Warlock-7 running True Strike and Cleave or a Valor Bard 7 running truestrike with extra attack? I am not so sure when you consider the difference in spell slots, extra damage from truestrike, and extra unarmed strikes or Agonizing Blast truestrike damage.

Part of this is spell slots matter to a Paladin and you are getting a lot more in a multiclass with a full caster.

Add in the other stuff you get with a multiclass and I think you will be well ahead on good multiclasses well before level 11.

Also it will be interesting to see the new monster manual. Supposedly non-magic damage resistance is going away. What does this mean for classic enemies like Devils, Vampires, Elementals etc? If it means those creatures are now resistant to all B/P/S then your martials got a lot weaker because their weapon damage is going to plummet (although Paladins will be better than most others). Truestrike is going to allow you to bypass that easily and on every round (at least with 1 attack).

The classic example being 'Lock 2/ Sorcerer 3 (yay, I have a better cantrip!) vs Sorcerer 5 (I have encounter ending spells like Fireball etc).

Ok there is a point here, but it isn't fireball. Fireball is not an encounter-ending spell IME. Fear is and Hypnotic Pattern can be in the right situation. But something like THL (new version) or cause fear upcast at 2nd level can do a ton in that regard too though.

Also this argument turns upside down when you consider your Paladin above. You claim multiclassing before 12 is always worse for a Paladin. But my Paladin 3/Sorcerer 5 has those encounter ending spells you talk about, cast as a bonus action to boot, while a Paladin 8 does not.

 

[ECMO3]

Seriously mate, give me a level 3, 4 or 5 multiclass build next to a single classed Martial and I bet you the mono-class wins out by a considerable margin at every one of those levels.

Ranger 2-Monk 1 using Hand Axe or light hammer, Dagger (with nick) and martial arts. That is going to outdamage most Ranger 3 builds. In addition to doing more damage, you can do more at range too than a single class ranger.

Another option is a Human Ranger 2/Monk 1 with MAgic-Intiate Truestrike using a greataxe with cleave and martial arts.

Even at level 5 running a greataxe, truestrike-cleave, martial arts and GWM is going to be pretty darn competitive with a straight class Ranger and this is without even having extra attack yet.

The Monk weapons are not a concern due to the new weapon switching rules. You can use any weapons and still get Monk unarmed attacks because you can juggle them more effectively.

The interesting question is the armor. In some of the initial reviews I saw they did not mention an armor limitation for the new martial arts, but later reviews have? If that exists (no martial arts in armor) it changes things quite a bit and makes this mostly applicable only to dex-based builds.

Also I believe under the new rules you can optimize your fighting style at every level and your mastery with every short rest. This means you can take a fighting style just for a single level where it is optimal and switch out to another one at the next level when something like extra attack comes online.

 

[FrogReaver]

I think a Bard/Sorcerer/Warlock 4 - Paladin 8 is better than most Paladin 11 or 12 you can build. Depending on the party and campaign I think it can even be better to multiclass at level 5.

Not seeing this one at all.

Multiattack is a pretty key ability, but even that is mitigated to a degree with weapon mastery and truestrike. Is a single class Paladin 11 really better than a Paladin 4-Dance Bard 7 or Warlock-7 running True Strike? I am not so sure when you consider the difference in spell slots, Cleave, and extra unarmed strikes or Agonizing Blast damage on your true strike attack.

I'm like 99% sure straight paladin is better than this.

Part of this is spell slots matter to a Paladin and you are getting a lot more with a multiclass with a full caster.

You really aren't getting that many more at these levels. Depending on the exact level split its 1-3 more slots. Now they are higher level slots which is nice, but the quantity just isn't there.

Ok there is a point here, but it isn't fireball. Fireball is not an encounter-ending spell IME. Fear is and Hypnotic Pattern can be in the right situation. But something like THL (new version) or cause fear upcast at 2nd level can do a ton in that regard too though.

Good Save or Suck AOE control spells like that are almost always pointless to double up on. Assuming your party has any other Bard/Wizard/Sorcerer then those kinds of spells are most likely already being cast. And if they aren't you would have been 100x better off just being a full caster that can cast them.

Also this argument turns upside down when you consider your Paladin above. You claim multiclassing before 11 is always worse for a Paladin. But my Paladin 3/Sorcerer 5 has those encounter ending spells you talk about, cast as a bonus action to boot, while a Paladin 8 does not.

Paladin 3/Sorcerer 5 is a terrible multiclass. I get you did cool things with it, but there's so much better. Maybe in a single encounter day it would be really good since you could blow all your sorcerery points on quicken and slots to open with a good higher level spell followed up by smites. But in a day with 3-4 combats, just no.

 

[FrogReaver]

Ranger 2-Monk 1 using Hand Axe or light hammer, Dagger and martial arts (with nick and vex). That is going to outdamage most Ranger 3 builds. In addition to doing more damage, you can do more at range too than a single class ranger.

Another option is a Human Ranger 2/Monk 1 with MAgic-Intiate Truestrike using a greataxe with cleave and martial arts.

Even at level 5 running a greataxe, truestrike-cleave, martial arts and GWM is going to be pretty darn competitive with a straight class Ranger and this is without even having extra attack yet.

The Monk weapons are not a concern due to the new weapon switching rules. You can use any weapons and still get Monk unarmed attacks because you can juggle them more effectively.

The interesting question is the armor. In some of the initial reviews I saw they did not mention an armor limitation for the new martial arts. If that exists it changes things quite a bit and makes this mostly applicable only to dex-based builds.

Also I believe under the new rules you can optimize your fighting style at every level and your mastery with every short rest. This means you can take a fighting style just for a single level where it is optimal and switch out at the next level when extra attack comes online.

Hunters Mark beats bonus action attacks and doesn't require level dipping and delaying progression to get it.

 

[Flamestrike]

I think a Bard/Sorcerer/Warlock 4 - Paladin 8 is better than most Paladin 11 or 12 you can build.

Leaving aside you're delaying access to higher level spells and class features, no it's not.

Give me your multiclass build at 3rd, 4th, 5th, 9th, 11th level (the mono-class will be much stronger at these levels).

At every other level, the two 'builds' are equal.

 

[ECMO3]

Not seeing this one at all.


I'm like 99% sure straight paladin is better than this.

Well maybe, but I don't think so.

A Warlock is getting an extra 2d6 Truestrike damage + an extra 5 agonizing blast damage and has more spell slots for smite

A Dance Bard is getting pretty regular d8 unarmed strikes as a bonus action in addition to Truestrike and more spell slots for smite

A Valor Bard has a better extra attack, allowing both Truestrike and another attack as an action and more spell slots.

You really aren't getting that many more at these levels. Depending on the exact level split its 1-3 more slots. Now they are higher level slots which is nice, but the quantity just isn't there.

No it is more than that. Paladin 11 has 10 spell slots (4/3/3). Paladin 4/Bard 7 has 14 (4/3/3/3/1) and they are higher slots.

Good Save or Suck AOE control spells like that are almost always pointless to double up on. Assuming your party has any other Bard/Wizard/Sorcerer then those kinds of spells are most likely already being cast.

Then why does it matter that the Sorcerer multiclassed to Warlock? The post I replied to implied that a Sorc2/Warlock3 was way worse than a Sorc 5.

Paladin 3/Sorcerer 5 is a terrible multiclass. I get you did cool things with it, but there's so much better. Maybe in a single encounter day it would be really good since you could blow all your sorcerery points on quicken and slots to open with a good higher level spell followed up by smites. But in a day with 3-4 combats, just no.

Well I disagree. Magic beats ..... well beating things with a stick most of the time. If spells like Truestrike did not exist I would agree with you.

Even if I use 4 Sorcerery point to quicken a cantrip - that is on the order of 30 points of damage just from my sorcery points ... or about 10 points per fight with 3 fights a day. On top of that I have 11 more slots for smites (3/3/3/1) which is about twice as much smite damage as a single class Paladin has available at that level.

That is before you consider the interplay with empowered spell and divine smite.

And yes I have the flexibility to do like you said and open with a good higher level spell instead.

 

[Flamestrike]

Ranger 2-Monk 1 using Hand Axe or light hammer, Dagger (with nick) and martial arts.

You need your Bonus action as a Ranger free to use Hunters Mark, not to punch things.

On rounds where you have to switch (or cast) Hunters mark (so every other round) your damage is lower than a single classed Hunter Ranger.

Next level you finally get Hunters prey. I get ASI (dual wielder which totally makes up for Martial arts, while also giving me a +1 to my Dex for a +1 bonus to hit and damage).

Next level you get your ASI, while I get Extra attack and 2nd level spell slots (it's not even close at this level).

That is going to outdamage most Ranger 3 builds.

No, it doesn't.

Round 1:

Multi 3: (bonus action, Hunters Mark) 2d6+3, 2d6+3 (Nick, TWF) = 20 damage.

Hunter 3: (bonus action Hunters Mark, noting any resistances or vulnerabilities the creature has thanks to Hunters Lore) 2d6+3, 2d6+3 +1d8 (Colossus slayer) or 1d6+3 (Horde breaker) = 25 or so average damage.

Next round your damage increases (due to the extra Martial Arts punch) and we catch up damage wise. You dont actually go past the mono-class Ranger until round 3 (by which time you almost certainly have had to shift Hunters Mark elsewhere, losing your Martial arts punch).

Next level I get Dual Wielder, so its a wash and we're still at par.

The level after I get extra attack, and 2nd level spells (while you're getting an ASI) so its a clear win to the Mono ranger.

Another option is a Human Ranger 2/Monk 1 with MAgic-Intiate Truestrike using a greataxe with cleave and martial arts.

You cant use a Greataxe and retain Martial Arts.

You gain the following benefits while you are unarmed or wielding only Monk Weapons and you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a Shield..

Greataxes are not Monk weapons, so no Dex to damage, bonus action unarmed strikes, or increased damage.

 

[ECMO3]

Leaving aside you're delaying access to higher level spells and class features, no it's not.

Give me your multiclass build at 3rd, 4th, 5th, 9th, 11th level (the mono-class will be much stronger at these levels).

At every other level, the two 'builds' are equal.

OK.

2nd level Bladelock/1st level Paladin is better than 3rd level Vengance Paladin

2nd level Bladelock/2nd Level Paladin is better than 4th level Vengence Paladin

2nd level Blade Lock/3rd Level Vengence Paladin is pretty darn close to a 5th level Vengence Paladin

6th level Valor Bard/3rd level Vengence Paladin is better than a 9th level Vengence Paladin

7th level Valor Bard/4th level Vengance Paladin is better than an 11th level Paladin.

 

[ECMO3]

You need your Bonus action as a Ranger free to use Hunters Mark, not to punch things.

When you are not punching things sure. But when you are punching things it is a 3rd attack every round at level 2 .... and if you have HM up another 1d6 on it.

Round 1:

Multi 3: (bonus action, Hunters Mark) 2d6+3, 2d6+3 (Nick, TWF) = 20 damage.

Hunter 3: (bonus action Hunters Mark, noting any resistances or vulnerabilities the creature has thanks to Hunters Lore) 2d6+3, 2d6+3 +1d8 (Colossus slayer) or 1d6+3 (Horde breaker) = 25 or so average damage.

Next round your damage increases (due to the extra Martial Arts punch) and we catch up damage wise. You dont actually go past the mono-class Ranger until round 3 (by which time you almost certainly have had to shift Hunters Mark elsewhere, losing your Martial arts punch).

Unless I didn't use it or was out of it to start with.

How about if we both open up with Entangle on round 1 instead of Hunter's Mark:
multi: 1d6+3
Hunter 3: 0

or if we don't cast any spell on Round 1:
multi: 3d6+9
hunter: 2d6+1d8+6

or if we cast cure wounds on the wizard that went down right before our turn:
multi: 1d6+3
Hunter: 0

or if I make an attack and then take the hide action:
multi: 1d6+3
Hunter: 0

or if I dodge:
multi: 1d6+3
Hunter: 0

or if I have to dash to get to the enemy:
multi: 1d6+3
Hunter: 0

Yes if you are playing a hunter and cast HM on the first round you will do more damage for that round. Most of the time I think the multiclass build is going to do more damage in play at level 3.

Also the ability to attack at will as a bonus action is pretty darn good.

Next level I get Dual Wielder, so its a wash and we're still at par.

Next level is not level 3.

You cant use a Greataxe and retain Martial Arts.

Absolutely you can. you just need to stow it before the martial arts attack.

The new rules on weapon switching make this easy to do.

You gain the following benefits while you are unarmed or wielding only Monk Weapons and you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a Shield..

Like I said earlier, if that is the actual ruling on armor it makes some builds less viable.

WRT a greataxe after you attack and stow your weapon (or before) then you are unarmed and as long as you are unarmed you can make the martial arts attack.

Greataxes are not Monk weapons, so no Dex to damage, bonus action unarmed strikes, or increased damage.

If you are a dex-wisdom based build and wanted to use a Greataxe you would typically run at least a 13 strength and use the greataxe with truestrike at this level going off of Wisdom and yes you would get your bonus action unarmed strike with that as well as the Greataxe cleave (if applicable).

 

[Flamestrike]

OK.

2nd level Bladelock/1st level Paladin is better than 3rd level Vengance Paladin

No its not.

Post it, and we can compare.

Point buy.

2nd level Bladelock/2nd Level Paladin is better than 4th level Vengence Paladin

No, its not.

Post it, and we can compare.

Point buy.

2nd level Blade Lock/3rd Level Vengence Paladin is pretty darn close to a 5th level Vengence Paladin

Not even close at this level.

Post it, and we can compare.

Point buy.

6th level Valor Bard/3rd level Vengence Paladin is better than a 9th level Vengence Paladin

Possibly, but by this level the campaign is long over and you've done nothing other than be sucky next to the single classed PC for most of it.