D&D 5E (2014) Dark Sun, problematic content, and 5E…

[Hussar]

The judgement from equating wanting a DS setting for 5e to being ok with genocide and crushing skulls.

As for giving an example, those capable of meeting your requirements are far more likely to be playing a homebrew version than debating it here. Not everyone that drives a car knows how they work, let alone can build one in their driveway if that were a requirement for owning and driving a car there would be very few cars on the road.

As has been stated here by many there are things just as bad as DS already in D&D 5e.

I refer you to @Umbran ’s very solid responses since they are far more patient than mine.

 

[king of the ceaders]

I refer you to @Umbran ’s very solid responses since they are far more patient than mine.

I did read his posts.

I answered your question, I didn't ask one.


You have taken us down and awkward path from me posting a definition to referring me to another's posts, without actually addressing any of the answers I have given to your questions.

I am having a difficult time understanding your reasoning for posting, you ask questions you obviously don't want answers to, use hyperbole, fear mongering along with hypotheticals, presented in a highly combative tone to what end?

 

[overgeeked]

Personally, i wouldn't want WoTC to touch DS with 11 foot pole. If they left Ravenloft alone, I would be even happier. As a fan, i would much rather see WoTC sell rights to those two IP's to someone else. Preferably someone with enough courage to make proper M or even R rated product (including artwork).

That's where I am, too. If WotC does anything with Dark Sun at this point I just want them to open it up to the DM's Guild. The fans will do an infinitely better job of handling the IP than WotC ever will.

 

[Justice and Rule]

That one should be easy, we even have a recent example from 2 years ago. "I don't condone slavery personally. However, it's true that I wrote Rudeus as someone who is not averse to slavery. Also, the original story is written with a kind of mild setting where it is accepted that, "Slavery is a normal thing in this world. It is what it is.”.... season 3 is expected next year

Can we not turn to isekai authors for examples, because the rest of that statement ain't honestly great:

"About Rudeus: He doesn't really have any feelings of hatred for slavery. He feels like, it's not necessarily the case that all slaves are universally unhappier as slaves than they were before becoming slaves. So while kidnapping is evil, he can't say with certainty that slavery itself is evil and doesn't want to impose his own sense of justice upon a culture he is unfamiliar with."

Like, this is the sort of attitude I would want to avoid when it comes to a Dark Sun game, and why these sorts of statements won't work: they break down into "We don't condone slavery, we're just giving people the chance to own slaves", and that isn't going to quiet any critiques. It needs to be more than that, talking about how they want to handle slavery and how they want players to interact with it, how they intend to do the terrible thing proper justice, rather than just an attraction at an amusement park. And in that regard, I'm just not sure D&D and WotC in particular is built to handle it well.

Which isn't to say other games can't: to move to a different, similarly-fraught example, child abuse is not something I would bring up in a D&D game, but Delta Green has an entire campaign that deals with it (God's Teeth) that I have and I think does a good job at capturing the true horror of it. It's uncomfortable in exactly the ways it needs to be and it isn't gratuitous because dealing with its ramifications is a big part of that entire campaign.

 

[tetrasodium]

Can we not turn to isekai authors for examples, because the rest of that statement ain't honestly great:

Context is important, that quote was in relation to the hypothetical spectre of social media outrage. It's relevant because that particular series of light novels has a plotline that involves purchasing a dwarven child slave to train for something crafting related. There was some controversy when it came up in the anime adaptation and it quickly died off after his statement. Having read the books where it's more explicit about the situation of everyone involved and the reasons I can say that it's a good example for purposes of demonstrating the impact of a blunt statement like that when it comes to the social media outrage hypothetical that was mentioned earlier

Like, this is the sort of attitude I would want to avoid when it comes to a Dark Sun game,

Again context matters. A statement like that about a darksun books would be about athas or dark sun rather than rudeus greyrat and the world he exists in. It's complicated but part of why is because Rudy isn't the stereotypical 2d self insert character in a long series (like 30 book multiple seasons by then) involving recovering from a severe trauma of his own. It would not make sense for someone who was literally raised from birth in a native low ranking seminoble type family practically selling him into a political marriage for tuition with a magic tutor. Expecting some other mindset at that point I'm the story would be odd.

and why these sorts of statements won't work: they break down into "We don't condone slavery, we're just giving people the chance to own slaves", and that isn't going to quiet any critiques. It needs to be more than that, talking about how they want to handle slavery and how they want players to interact with it, how they intend to do the terrible thing proper justice, rather than just an attraction at an amusement park. And in that regard, I'm just not sure D&D and WotC in particular is built to handle it well.

Which darksun book are you citing for that bold bit there? Can you quote a relevant supporting section or is this a call for change based on your own homebrew? If not a darksun book, can you site some other d&d book?

 

[Justice and Rule]

Context is important, that quote was in relation to the hypothetical spectre of social media outrage. It's relevant because that particular series of light novels has a plotline that involves purchasing a dwarven child slave to train for something crafting related. There was some controversy when it came up in the anime adaptation and it quickly died off after his statement. Having read the books where it's more explicit about the situation of everyone involved and the reasons I can say that it's a good example for purposes of demonstrating the impact of a blunt statement like that when it comes to the social media outrage hypothetical that was mentioned earlier

I don't think it's really died off as much as people kind of just either accept the problems with it or dropped it. Like, I know of the whole controversy (among the many other ones, too) and honestly I think the whole thing was completely unnecessary and the justification here to be really bad. Like, you can call it "blunt", I would call it "tone-deaf". It's not like this sort of thing was really going to stop a new season from being released anyways, given that Shield Hero is arguably even worse and that's still going on. But that statement is exactly the sort of thing that tells me a game company isn't really at the level of handling it. Just saying "Our world has it, we don't condone it" misses that we actually want you to tell us how you are going to engage with it and not just make it seem like a gratuitous addition.

Again context matters. A statement like that about a darksun books would be about athas or dark sun rather than rudeus greyrat and the world he exists in. It's complicated but part of why is because Rudy isn't the stereotypical 2d self insert character in a long series (like 30 book multiple seasons by then) involving recovering from a severe trauma of his own. It would not make sense for someone who was literally raised from birth in a native low ranking seminoble type family practically selling him into a political marriage for tuition with a magic tutor. Expecting some other mindset at that point I'm the story would be odd.

I don't think it's portrayed nearly as complicated as you think, and in fact I'd say it's honestly more brushed over and fans like to say it's "complicated". Like, this is an isekai: he's from our world. In the statement the author makes, he says that he's not even sure that slavery is necessarily bad for all slaves. That is not complicated, that is just bad. Hell, One Piece honestly does a far better job at capturing the harm of slavery than most isekai do.

But this is why it's exactly the sort of thing that Wizards should avoid, doubly so because they are creating interactive media and not simply a fixed narrative: They are creating a world to be engaged with and not something simply to be observed. They should tell us more than just "We don't condone it", given that Paizo rightly caught flak for allowing people to buy slaves in Society play for quite a while before that got changed.

Which darksun book are you citing for that bold bit there? Can you quote a relevant supporting section or is this a call for change based on your own homebrew? If not a darksun book, can you site some other d&d book?

I assume you are being facetious or deliberately obtuse if you don't see me taking the statement you gave as an example and using it for Dark Sun (even more appropriate given that Rudeus isn't just indifferent to slavery, but also engages with the system itself). It's why Wizards would need to do more work, and also why I'm guessing you didn't really engage with my whole point that I don't think Wizards is built to handle those issues better, while other companies likely are because they will focus on them rather than make them set dressing.

Like, let me ask you: What do you think Wizards should write as a sidebar when it comes to the potential for buying and selling slaves in a game? Because while I know many people argue that players want to be destroying that institution, given the nature of the game there's nothing that really encourages them not to. It is the world, after all. So how does Wizards do that? And how do you tell someone to run a slave for a PC? I don't think Wizards has a good answer for that, and from what I've seen, I don't think man Dark Sun fans really do, either. Or, at least, not answers that would go beyond their own table.

 

[Hussar]

I did read his posts.

I answered your question, I didn't ask one.


You have taken us down and awkward path from me posting a definition to referring me to another's posts, without actually addressing any of the answers I have given to your questions.

I am having a difficult time understanding your reasoning for posting, you ask questions you obviously don't want answers to, use hyperbole, fear mongering along with hypotheticals, presented in a highly combative tone to what end?

Highly combatative? Possibly. I get a bit impatient when people jump into conversations without any context in order to be right. If you weren't actually adding to the conversation, why bother? But, that's neither here nor there.

You refuse to actually show what the content would look like. You have provided no actual means that WotC could use to thread the needle that would satisfy people and thus show how they could possibly benefit from creating a new Dark Sun. All we get is vague assurances that it wouldn't be a problem from people who refuse to accept that something like slavery is a world away from something like a psychotic individual baking children in pies. The Ravenloft example of a hag baking children in pies is in perfect keeping with the Gothic Horror of the genre. Obviously leaning on the Grimm Fairy Tales aspect of the setting. And, it's an individual, obviously very evil, who is doing it in secret. When the secret is exposed, the evil individual is brought to justice.

In Dark Sun, the equivalent would be rape camps where women are bred for their children who are then sold at markets for meat. Because THAT'S what slavery looks like. In Dark Sun, slavery isn't considered evil. It's a normal part of life. That child who keeps a slave servant isn't doing anything wrong, by the terms of the setting. The argument that, "Oh, well, we have bad stuff in other settings, why can't we have this" is so incredibly tone deaf.

Like I said, you'll get your Dark Sun the day after I get my Warlord. It's just not going to happen and no amount of hand wringing and whatabouts is going to change that.

 

[king of the ceaders]

Highly combatative? Possibly. I get a bit impatient when people jump into conversations without any context in order to be right. If you weren't actually adding to the conversation, why bother? But, that's neither here nor there.

You refuse to actually show what the content would look like. You have provided no actual means that WotC could use to thread the needle that would satisfy people and thus show how they could possibly benefit from creating a new Dark Sun. All we get is vague assurances that it wouldn't be a problem from people who refuse to accept that something like slavery is a world away from something like a psychotic individual baking children in pies. The Ravenloft example of a hag baking children in pies is in perfect keeping with the Gothic Horror of the genre. Obviously leaning on the Grimm Fairy Tales aspect of the setting. And, it's an individual, obviously very evil, who is doing it in secret. When the secret is exposed, the evil individual is brought to justice.

In Dark Sun, the equivalent would be rape camps where women are bred for their children who are then sold at markets for meat. Because THAT'S what slavery looks like. In Dark Sun, slavery isn't considered evil. It's a normal part of life. That child who keeps a slave servant isn't doing anything wrong, by the terms of the setting. The argument that, "Oh, well, we have bad stuff in other settings, why can't we have this" is so incredibly tone deaf.

Like I said, you'll get your Dark Sun the day after I get my Warlord. It's just not going to happen and no amount of hand wringing and whatabouts is going to change that.

Again I provided the definition of a word being argued about, you drug me into this conversation, and have provided nothing but hyperbole, fear mongering, and judgement.

I will now exit this conversation have a nice day.

 

[Hussar]

And, just for the general reader here, and not aimed at anyone specific, the reason I'm very combatative here is because I find my patience at an end after all this time. Years of hearing the same tone-deaf arguments get trotted out every single time WotC decides to not resurrect some content from the past. And, again, no matter what, they get attacked for it. Years of people wanting pdf's of older material gets answered with WotC putting it on DM's Guild with a very mild warning distancing themselves from the past and people lose their poop.

Art that shows a wider variety than in the past? Oh, it's attacking the past. It's "twee" (whatever that is supposed to mean). It's disrespectful to older gamers.

I'm just so sick of being told, "Oh, well, this (whatever this happens to be) doesn't bother me, so, it shouldn't bother you and how dare you suggest that I shouldn't get what I want just because it makes you feel uncomfortable in the hobby!" I'm so sick of watching basic empathy being ignored. When someone tells you that they don't like something, DON'T DO THAT THING. Full stop. When did basic empathy become a bad thing?

 

[kayakingpoodle]

I'm just so sick of being told, "Oh, well, this (whatever this happens to be) doesn't bother me, so, it shouldn't bother you and how dare you suggest that I shouldn't get what I want just because it makes you feel uncomfortable in the hobby!" I'm so sick of watching basic empathy being ignored. When someone tells you that they don't like something, DON'T DO THAT THING. Full stop. When did basic empathy become a bad thing?

Do you truly not see the hypocrisy/double standard of this statement? It is ok for your preferences to trump others simply because you don't like it?

You do realize no one would force you to buy let alone play the setting don't you?