D&D 5E (2014) Dark Sun, problematic content, and 5E…

[Paul Farquhar]

Brom's distinct art style is half of DS's appeal. It's iconic, evocative and it fits the mood of the setting. Chainmail bikini's weren't really his style. He did blend horror and gothic with fantasy thou.

Which is the one thing we can be 100% certain would not be in any modern DS revival. Rights aside, any modern D&D product is going to use the modern D&D art style.

So, if you don’t want DS with a modern art style, stop asking WotC to revive DS.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

This is the thing that would have certain people clutching at their pearls. Using a modern art style instead of Boris’s chainmail bikinis.

Its BROM and they were CHITIN bikinis, thank you very much!

 

[GrimCo]

Personally, i wouldn't want WoTC to touch DS with 11 foot pole. If they left Ravenloft alone, I would be even happier. As a fan, i would much rather see WoTC sell rights to those two IP's to someone else. Preferably someone with enough courage to make proper M or even R rated product (including artwork).

 

[tetrasodium]

Lots of discussion since I posted this morning. It seems like just about all of the darksun critics in this thread are circularly quoting and referencing what they themselves and each other assert is in the darksun books as justification for doing violence to the setting rather than actually relying on anything actually printed in those books. That or I missed the point where this became a thread about workshopping a homebrew setting that is very much not based on darksun.

The "Athasian Feywild" or "Land-within-the-wind" was canon in 4ed and the origin place of the "Athasian eladrin". Athasian genasies also were canon.

I meant I feel unconfortable when an evil organization is killing hundred of innocents and the PCs can't stop or avoid it, or at least not until a time later. It causes a great feeling of rage and impotence. Usually those monsters are killed before the end of the episode, but in Dark Sun all that injustice can't be stopped because the main villains have got metaplot armour.

The idea of the metaplot and the novels should be to show the villains will suffer for all the damage they have caused.

In 5e the elemental planes have been retouched, and maybe this could affect Athasian cosmology because plane-travelers could go from Athas to elemental planes.

I imagine the "Grey" like a "plane of mirrors", a "copy" of the material plane but with some twist, and I would add some touch style new weird fiction, the mythology of the backroom and creepypaste.

In the Astral Sea you can find ruins, but also this should mean dungeons to be explored.

Athasian cosmology has got "elemental chaos". This could be the "origin" point of infernal dragons as high-level antagonists.

The psulorns could establish secret bases beyond the region of Tyr thanks some secret psitek.
The zerns (3.5 Monster Manual IV) could have got their reasons to visit and explore the Athaspace. These "fleshwarpers" could be very interested into the "life-shaping" or biopunk tech by the ancient rhulisti

* Could spinewyrms to use "psycometabolism" to "create" arms if they needed them?

It's supposed to be a bad thing that has no easy solutions to safeguard the setting themes and tone, everyone in the setting agrees and it's never presented as some kind of rose colored antebellum thing. I think that you are confusing "an actual reason why trying to easily solve a perceived problem with violence is a really bad idea∆" with "metaplot armor". Because there is a simple A->B->C reason why it's done and continued it's hypothetically possible for players to find a new B or a B² that mitigates it. At the same time it's entirely possible and (ime) likely for players to completely ignore it until crashing into an abrupt NPC granted reality check if they decide violence could make athas just like toril.

If you don't like it at your table then by all means tell your players it is a psitek thing or ask your gm if it can be. A desire to do that at your table is not a good reason to force that upon the published setting itself though and the gm is being totally reasonable if they point out that it's an important tonal safeguard that they don't see any reason to change.

The 4e planar copypasta applied to every setting has no place in an updated darksun just as the 5e eberron completely ignored that bad decision. There's been a lot said about how Hasbro really pushed the designers to do things like that with new IP rather than reusing old well known and popular lore, thankfully it has not continued into the 5e era.

∆thats not unique to d&d or darksun, look into what someone assassinating a certain archduke of Austria led to. This is just a complexity that can meaningfully manifest in actual gameplay

@Maxperson it is necessary because you are describing a randomized version of carousel but that didn't even stand up to the tissue paper thin plots of Logan's run. Ttrpgs are unlike a tv show in the fact that those involved can interact with the world rather than being a passive spectator.

Ironically the Almighty All-Seeing algorithm happened to decide that it would show me this super relevant video

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Can you explain the reason because it sounds so taboo? I could understand you fear it to become a lack of respect for victims of historical injustices in the real life, but you aren't talking about it, are you?

We know it is wrong, we aren't disagree about this. But my opinion is it can appear in a D&D story if it is shown as a grave injustice that must be fought by our heroic PCs. Slave traders can appear in our games if our PCs are going to kick their ass or pay a rescue for some catched prison.
And what if I said I don't like the romantic image about the pirates? They attacked towns in the coast to catch slaves.
I need clearer reasons because I can't understand you. It is wrong, but D&D villains do a lot of horrible actions, until the arrival of the heroic PCs who defeat them. I doubt telling about slavery in the region of Tyr was like an Overton window.
X-Men 97 is a child-friendly cartoon, with a relatively low level of violence but Bastion was a supervillain who tried a genocide against the mutants, and Magneto also tried a genocide against the "flatscans". Exo-squad was a cartoon where the neosapians (transgenic humanoids) started a genocide against the humans who created them.

We don't need a complete revival but an update of crunch and monsters, and some pages about the geography, the sorcerer-kings and the city-states. That would be enough. What do you think about a "Galek Sandstrider's guide of the Tablelands"?

If DS can become "problematic" is teenages players to be forced to morale dilemas to survive. Would you steal water by other survivor?

* Sorry but English is not my first languange and I can't understand totally you want to mean.

* Other idea for a possible spin-off. There were deities in Athas, they rebelled against the primal powers and they lost but these chose a special punishment. The deities lost their divinity but not their memories, and they reincarnated like ordinary mortals in their astral domains. The intention was a test. Those who were too arrogant suffered the most for their pride, and this became their downfall. Others grew accustomed to living like mortals, living as hermits or marrying and raising children. They learned to be happy with simple lives and avoided trouble except in legitimate defense. The wisest accepted a fresh start and used their wisdom to help others. They never achieved crowns or thrones, but they became highly respected teachers and advisors. You don't have to be a boss to become a leader. Some domains are like the hell because is the destination in the afterlife of souls with a bad karma.
Then we have got a zone with "Athasian culture" but not necessarially so too grimm.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Can you explain the reason because it sounds so taboo?

Do you understand the term "bad taste", as applied to manners? As in "the comedian's joke was in bad taste"? The relates to culture, and culture is something that continually changes, is different between generations (and countries, obviously) and is not based on logic.

In Betjeman's poem "On the Death of King George V", he mentions that "the new king lands, hatless, from the plane". The point being, in 1936, a gentleman not wearing a hat in public was seen as quite scandalous.

 

[tetrasodium]

Can you explain the reason because it sounds so taboo? I could understand you fear it to become a lack of respect for victims of historical injustices in the real life, but you aren't talking about it, are you?

We know it is wrong, we aren't disagree about this. But my opinion is it can appear in a D&D story if it is shown as a grave injustice that must be fought by our heroic PCs. Slave traders can appear in our games if our PCs are going to kick their ass or pay a rescue for some catched prison.
And what if I said I don't like the romantic image about the pirates? They attacked towns in the coast to catch slaves.
I need clearer reasons because I can't understand you. It is wrong, but D&D villains do a lot of horrible actions, until the arrival of the heroic PCs who defeat them. I doubt telling about slavery in the region of Tyr was like an Overton window.
X-Men 97 is a child-friendly cartoon, with a relatively low level of violence but Bastion was a supervillain who tried a genocide against the mutants, and Magneto also tried a genocide against the "flatscans". Exo-squad was a cartoon where the neosapians (transgenic humanoids) started a genocide against the humans who created them.

We don't need a complete revival but an update of crunch and monsters, and some pages about the geography, the sorcerer-kings and the city-states. That would be enough. What do you think about a "Galek Sandstrider's guide of the Tablelands"?

If DS can become "problematic" is teenages players to be forced to morale dilemas to survive. Would you steal water by other survivor?

* Sorry but English is not my first languange and I can't understand totally you want to mean.

* Other idea for a possible spin-off. There were deities in Athas, they rebelled against the primal powers and they lost but these chose a special punishment. The deities lost their divinity but not their memories, and they reincarnated like ordinary mortals in their astral domains. The intention was a test. Those who were too arrogant suffered the most for their pride, and this became their downfall. Others grew accustomed to living like mortals, living as hermits or marrying and raising children. They learned to be happy with simple lives and avoided trouble except in legitimate defense. The wisest accepted a fresh start and used their wisdom to help others. They never achieved crowns or thrones, but they became highly respected teachers and advisors. You don't have to be a boss to become a leader. Some domains are like the hell because is the destination in the afterlife of souls with a bad karma.
Then we have got a zone with "Athasian culture" but not necessarially so too grimm.

Serious question because I don't know who or or what point this is directed at. Explain what reason? Can you elaborate on what you are unsure of?

 

[Synthil]

I'm still utterly baffled that anyone thinks that WotC is going to go for this. On what planet does anyone think that WotC's legal department would okay this? I can just imagine that meeting.

Eh, I wouldn't have thought Disney would bring attempted rape into Star Wars, but here we are.

 

[Perky the Dragon]

Ok, let's see how this would work in actual practice.

Presenting slavery. It's DS, so slavery is part of the setting. But, if you thought people lost their poop over the Hadozee picture, imagine the reaction to a full color spread of a slave owner beating a slave. Or a slave market. Or, hell, just slaves working. Never going to fly. So, we can talk about slavery, but, can't show it. And, even if it's talked about, it's going to be largely elided. We're never going to get descriptions of rape houses where slaves are routinely sexually assualted. Or, of course, let's ignore the notion of breeding slaves - repeated gang raping of slaves by other slaves - that's not going to fly. Never minding, of course, the horrific treatment of child slaves.

So, we get a completely white washed "oh, it's slavery and slavery is bad mmmkay" kind of slavery. No details. Just nods and winks.

Yeah, that's going to fly.

I'm still utterly baffled that anyone thinks that WotC is going to go for this. On what planet does anyone think that WotC's legal department would okay this? I can just imagine that meeting.

Lawyer: So, let me get this straight. You want to publish, with the WOtC and Hasbro names, a book about a setting where significant populations are enslaved people. Where slavery is an every day thing and acceptable. You're not going to actually talk about it. You're not actually going to show it, but, it's going to be there in the book... Ummm... Why not just do another setting that won't cause a massive backlash and possibly open us up to litigation? Please?

This is genuinely bonkers.

Do you actually think there are organisations for sued for featuring slavery in products?

Are the makers of Avatar the Last Airbender in danger of losing their shirts for featuring the Air Nomad massacre?

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Bad taste? Sorry but you can't imagine the "bad taste" I had to suffer from the "media", for example some cover from the satiric magazine "el Jueves" (like MAD or Charlie Hebbo). I am not so rude but I am too used to suffer "rudeness" and then I have become relatively insensitive. It isn't because I don't want to be polite but I am too surprised because you aren't used to the same of rudeness by other people. I have got some job partners who have cried some blasphemous comment as a way of letting off steam, and it's something natural in his mentality. People may have got different levels of tolerance and then we need a clear critera about when something becomes too ofensive or unconfortable

And what if I say the TTRPG "7th Sea" is "bad taste" because it shows some tropes based in dangerous prejudices from the real life? let's say in my opinion it has got some offensive stereotypes about certain nation or group.

Please I need to understand the difference between respect for people from the real History who have suffered serious injustice and people from the real life who suffers a low level of resilience against possible offenses.

We don't need a complete revival, but the setting unlocked in DMGuild, an update of the crunch and monsters, and maybe some pages describing the region and the city-states. Or maybe we should start from zero with a new region and a list of sorcerer-kings and domains.

Was slavery the psionic prestige class "thrallherd"?

The 3.5 divine complete had got a prestige class, the blighter, that worked like defiler magic.

Other idea. There was a world suffering a zombie-like plant apocalypse like "The last of us" and to avoid the end of the civilitation certain desperate measures were necesary. Somebody with plane-travel mutation founded Athas and the defilers. Defilers were recruited to stop the fungus-zombies (something like yellow-musk-creeper but with a hive-mind) and these saved the day but they started new troubles. This wouldbe like mixing Gamma World and Dark Sun.