D&D 5E (2014) Dark Sun, problematic content, and 5E…

[Hussar]

Ok, let's see how this would work in actual practice.

Presenting slavery. It's DS, so slavery is part of the setting. But, if you thought people lost their poop over the Hadozee picture, imagine the reaction to a full color spread of a slave owner beating a slave. Or a slave market. Or, hell, just slaves working. Never going to fly. So, we can talk about slavery, but, can't show it. And, even if it's talked about, it's going to be largely elided. We're never going to get descriptions of rape houses where slaves are routinely sexually assualted. Or, of course, let's ignore the notion of breeding slaves - repeated gang raping of slaves by other slaves - that's not going to fly. Never minding, of course, the horrific treatment of child slaves.

So, we get a completely white washed "oh, it's slavery and slavery is bad mmmkay" kind of slavery. No details. Just nods and winks.

Yeah, that's going to fly.

I'm still utterly baffled that anyone thinks that WotC is going to go for this. On what planet does anyone think that WotC's legal department would okay this? I can just imagine that meeting.

Lawyer: So, let me get this straight. You want to publish, with the WOtC and Hasbro names, a book about a setting where significant populations are enslaved people. Where slavery is an every day thing and acceptable. You're not going to actually talk about it. You're not actually going to show it, but, it's going to be there in the book... Ummm... Why not just do another setting that won't cause a massive backlash and possibly open us up to litigation? Please?

 

[king of the ceaders]

Sigh.

That's not the point.

It's not about differing opinions though, is it? It's about using a term that in no way actually applies, to describe something. The only reason the word is being used is because it's vaguely negative in the mind of the user so, it's a justification of "this is something I don't like, but, I can't just say, "I don't like it" because everyone will just ignore me, so, I'll use a vague, poorly applied word in order to make it sound like my opinion carries any actual weight."

I mean, I can call Mortal Kombat (to use an example from the thread) "twee" but that doesn't make it so. If you honestly think that the any of the first ten images in the PHB actually fall under the rubric of "twee" using your definition of "excessively dainty", then, by all means, let's see your examples. Otherwise, it's far more productive to actually stick to things approximating facts and stop trying to present personal feelings as anything other than just personal preferences.

Where did I say anything about the art?

I simply pointed out the argument over the word was as subjective as its definition. Why you are choosing to drag me into the pointless debate is beyond me, all I did was provide the definition and state the whole argument is flawed and comes down to feelings and consensus.

You are free to continue your debate with those interested, but unless you have questions about the definition of twee we are done here Good day.

 

[Hussar]

Where did I say anything about the art?

I simply pointed out the argument over there was as subjective as its definition. Why you are choosing to drag me into the pointless debate is beyond me, all I did was provide the definition and state the whole argument is flawed and comes down to feelings and consensus.

You are free to continue your debate with those interested, but unless you have questions about the definition of twee we are done here Good day.

Ahh, I see. You didn't bother learning the context of the conversation and jumped in with a completely uninformed opinion in order to quote a dictionary at me? Good to know. Considering the conversation was about the art being "twee" I'd say that's kinda the important point.

 

[king of the ceaders]

Ahh, I see. You didn't bother learning the context of the conversation and jumped in with a completely uninformed opinion in order to quote a dictionary at me? Good to know. Considering the conversation was about the art being "twee" I'd say that's kinda the important point.

I didn't provide the definition based on the context of the debate over the art, but on the context of the debate over the use of twee. The debate over the art has nothing to do with my post and I didn't jump in to that discussion.

Kindly refrain from being so condescending in future replies or just don't reply if you can't.

 

[Hussar]

Irony is ironic. Complaining about responses to a post that was jumping into a conversation that apparently you were not bothering to read.

If you weren’t interested in the conversation why did you provide a definition?

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

I can try understand the reason because somebody may feel unconfortable with the threat of the slavery but in the Western civilitation slavery was abolished more than a century ago. Why are we talking about this as if it happened a few decades ago? The wounds of the past are supposed to have healed by now. My grandparents were in the Spanish Civil War when they were very young. Sorry but I can't understand if the threat is an open wound in your society. At least here in Europe it isn't.
The terrorism has caused a lot of damage and suffering in the real life. Does this mean G.I.Joe franchise is going to be cancelled forever? I guess it doesn't because Renegade Games Studio is publishing the TTRPG.
My suggestion is if the PCs take action and intervene to stop some abuse, then they shouldn't be "punished by the DM" getting into even deeper trouble. For example if the PCs are exploring a some caverns and they discover a group of miners slavered by drows, if the PCs can defeat and free the miners then the plot is right, but if the group of slaverers is too dangerous for the level of PCs then it is not fair play, and teenage players shouldn't face that kind of moral dilemmas.

* A new idea for a possible spin-off. In the begining of the cleasing war some defilers arrive and start to conquest regions of the Feywild, the "land-within-the-wind". But something happened and those domains are shatered or separated and now they are like a cluster of demiplanes. Then the primal spirits choose a special punishment against the defilers. They are transformed into plants, sometimes into plant areas if the punishment is very severe. When some plant is hurt the cursed defiler suffers that pain. And if it was not enough other defilers can use the "punished" like a "mana batery", cruel but practical.

 

[king of the ceaders]

Irony is ironic. Complaining about responses to a post that was jumping into a conversation that apparently you were not bothering to read.

If you weren’t interested in the conversation why did you provide a definition?

I am not sure you're reading the posts, maybe read them again and get back to me then.

Choosing not to engage in a debate about art, but choosing to provide a definition of a word that is a part of a debate about art are two different things.

 

[tetrasodium]

There is a serious difference between telling villains killed a lot of people of the past, or they are killing "off-screen" and PCs are watching abuses in front of them and they can't stop it, or the risk is too high, almost a trap by the DMs. You are free to add the dread emperor from the book of vile darkness, a villains who goes acompanied by chained children. If the dread emperor is too powerful for the PCs then it is not fair, and this is worse if the players are underage teenages who shouldn't face those moral dilemmas that may break the fun and good vibes.

I'm not sure if the point you are trying to make has anything to do with the discussion because you don't seem to be talking about anything printed. You might need to bone up on the actually printed setting. Rajaat is presently sealed. The cleansing wars happened generations ago, old school wof lifespan elven generations in the year -3531. The human(oid) sacrifices bit is mentioned in a few places but generally in an "off-screen" manner like how borys consumes them for power needed to maintain the seal on rajaat or tyr (and probably others) need to pay him a yearly tithe of 1000. I can't recall ever coming across a description of borys doing so or indications that the players can be expected to assist with it. Something can be described and remain in such ways and still be of critical importance to maintaining the themes and tone of a setting.

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* A new idea for a possible spin-off. In the begining of the cleasing war some defilers arrive and start to conquest regions of the Feywild, the "land-within-the-wind". But something happened and those domains are shatered or separated and now they are like a cluster of demiplanes. Then the primal spirits choose a special punishment against the defilers. They are transformed into plants, sometimes into plant areas if the punishment is very severe. When some plant is hurt the cursed defiler suffers that pain. And if it was not enough other defilers can use the "punished" like a "mana batery", cruel but practical.

The feywild?! How did settings like FR that 4e one (points of light?) and grey hawk come up? Athas has it's own planar cosmology like eberron (material astral elemental chaos the grey & the black)

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

The "Athasian Feywild" or "Land-within-the-wind" was canon in 4ed and the origin place of the "Athasian eladrin". Athasian genasies also were canon.

I meant I feel unconfortable when an evil organization is killing hundred of innocents and the PCs can't stop or avoid it, or at least not until a time later. It causes a great feeling of rage and impotence. Usually those monsters are killed before the end of the episode, but in Dark Sun all that injustice can't be stopped because the main villains have got metaplot armour.

The idea of the metaplot and the novels should be to show the villains will suffer for all the damage they have caused.

In 5e the elemental planes have been retouched, and maybe this could affect Athasian cosmology because plane-travelers could go from Athas to elemental planes.

I imagine the "Grey" like a "plane of mirrors", a "copy" of the material plane but with some twist, and I would add some touch style new weird fiction, the mythology of the backroom and creepypaste.

In the Astral Sea you can find ruins, but also this should mean dungeons to be explored.

Athasian cosmology has got "elemental chaos". This could be the "origin" point of infernal dragons as high-level antagonists.

The psulorns could establish secret bases beyond the region of Tyr thanks some secret psitek.
The zerns (3.5 Monster Manual IV) could have got their reasons to visit and explore the Athaspace. These "fleshwarpers" could be very interested into the "life-shaping" or biopunk tech by the ancient rhulisti

* Could spinewyrms to use "psycometabolism" to "create" arms if they needed them?

 

[Hussar]

I am not sure you're reading the posts, maybe read them again and get back to me then.

Choosing not to engage in a debate about art, but choosing to provide a definition of a word that is a part of a debate about art are two different things.

Well okay then. Howzabout we get back to the actual discussion then? I see that you found my description of trying to actually publish a Darksun source book to be workthy of a frowny face. Which part did you disagree with? Do you think that my interpretation of how things would go is somehow missing something?

See, this is the problem that @LuisCarlos17f seems to be ignoring. It's not that slavery is so difficult to talk about. It's really not. But, any depiction of slavery that isn't really clear is going to run afoul of the notion of whitewashing. See, we can largely use things like feudalism in the game because, by and large, feudalism wasn't a string of horrific crimes against humanity.

But including something like slavery in the game is like including genocide. That level of horror anyway. So, unless folks are also okay with depictions of individuals crushing the heads of babies against a tree, I'm thinking that any actual depiction of slavery should probably be off the table as well.