D&D 5E (2014) Dark Sun, problematic content, and 5E…

[Maxperson]

Of course there is. There are mountains of it out there. Just look at the results of the poll here.

The issue is not that there is no market, or that its 'problematic' or somehow wrong as a very vocal minority loves to try and tell (police, and judge) everyone.

The issue is, Wizards is not, by choice, IN the market for mature content.

Dark Sun isn't mature content. Or put another way, if Dark Sun is mature content, D&D as a whole, with all its violence, mind and emotion control magic, etc. is also mature content.

 

[Scribe]

Dark Sun isn't mature content. Or put another way, if Dark Sun is mature content, D&D as a whole, with all its violence, mind and emotion control magic, etc. is also mature content.

Violence is always acceptable, but to discuss the why gets into Realms forbidden.

 

[Maxperson]

That is also not answering the question or providing the clarification requested and is why I asked for specific examples & specific books. That's a critical clarification because it very much seems like you are weaving and bobbing around admitting that you are trying to say an updated darksun should drop significant setting fundamentals in order to downplay text that is painfully obvious not actually present in the actual game books. It seems very much like those two things are only objectionable when we ignore actual printed game books and focus exclusively on word of mouth thirdhand statements made for years by people who didn't actually read any of the books purported to support the claim or misrepresented the game book in making the claim.

Removing rajaat and the cleansing wars would do significant harm to the setting because keeping him healed is THE reason why his champions (aka the sorcerer kings) don't just work to start rebuilding civilization or shifting from slavery towards more developed economies instead of regularly engaging in mass human(oid) sacrifices to maintain the seal on something much worse than post apocapyptic status quo cultural stasis. Without the cleansing wars those SKs maintaining the apocalypse are no longer also part of the cause and their extreme power seems like bizarrely unjustified plot armor.


To save everyone time and minimize the snipe hunt you seem to be asking for, here is what they kreen of athas has to say about rajaat and the cleansing wars.

Spoiler: pg3

View attachment 410075
Bonus inclusion of a page from the back of the book because it includes words
View attachment 410077
But that reminds me that beyond the prism pentad existed as a game book.

Neither of them seems to be in dse2 blackspire mountains & beyond the prism pentad mentions cleansing wars twice with rajaat being mentioned in relation to others he interacted with many many times but a quick refresh skim isn't seeming too noteworthy either.

So... is your bone of contention with "later product" actually printed in any of those game books or is your entire point focused on taking a bat to deeply interconnected setting details to make changes that avoid embellished or fabricated thirdhand retellings you've read about that themselves were based on of the same sort of second hand retellings? If there is something you think is unreasonable printed in an actual game book, can you point to a specific book that you feel embodies the "problematic content" or can we just acknowledge that you may have been given a bad impression of what was actually printed at some point in the last 30ish years & maybe shouldn't be looked to as the person to guide how to update a setting you aren't too familiar with?

I don't see anything there that would imply that the Sorcerer Kings would become "good" guys, getting rid of slavery and making the common folks' lot in life better by restoring civilization.

They have a stranglehold on power, and survival keeps a lot of potential enemies busy. I'm not seeing the incentive for them to change if Rajaat is out of the picture.

 

[Maxperson]

Violence is always acceptable, but to discuss the why gets into Realms forbidden.

D&D has much more than just violence. It has kidnapping, grave robbing, robs people of consent and more.

 

[lynnfredricks]

Why do they get less use?

They don't necessarily do, but I know quite a few older GMs for example, that buy stuff and never end up using it. They have more disposable income.

 

[Older Beholder]

Darksun would have to change if it was released for 5E. And I don’t mean content wise. I mean, it would need to be compatible with the rest of the rules, not a stand alone system like it was in 2E, with ability scores going to 24.

 

[Scribe]

D&D has much more than just violence. It has kidnapping, grave robbing, robs people of consent and more.

Sure, but if Mom and Dad just flip through the book, how much of that is conveyed by the new art?

 

[humble minion]

And I don’t mean content wise. I mean, it would need to be compatible with the rest of the rules, not a stand alone system like it was in 2E, with ability scores going to 24.

Ability scores can stay standard without any real problems I think. The really hard core types who are concerned about this can just bump up the available points for points buy, or boost the standard array.

The real systemic problem is magic. I don’t think there’s ever been a higher-magic version of D&D than 5/5.5. At-will cantrips were never even heard of when DS was created, and these days there’s even more barbarian with magical abilities than not. Forcing the defiling/preserving choice on every pc every time they use a magic ability, or having magic users hated and hunted outcasts because common knowledge is that their magic destroys plants and crops, is a significant compatibility problem with the 5th Ed ethos.

Still, 4th Ed had at-will cantrips too and they managed it somehow, and you could just handwave that ‘magical’ class abilities are psionic in nature unless they are explicitly defined as spellcasting that requires a focus. It still might result in the return of the crossbow wizard though…

 

[Maxperson]

Sure, but if Mom and Dad just flip through the book, how much of that is conveyed by the new art?

Not a clue. I don't have most of it. Just the DMG and I haven't even looked through that yet.

 

[Zardnaar]

That is also not answering the question or providing the clarification requested and is why I asked for specific examples & specific books. That's a critical clarification because it very much seems like you are weaving and bobbing around admitting that you are trying to say an updated darksun should drop significant setting fundamentals in order to downplay text that is painfully obvious not actually present in the actual game books. It seems very much like those two things are only objectionable when we ignore actual printed game books and focus exclusively on word of mouth thirdhand statements made for years by people who didn't actually read any of the books purported to support the claim or misrepresented the game book in making the claim.

Removing rajaat and the cleansing wars would do significant harm to the setting because keeping him healed is THE reason why his champions (aka the sorcerer kings) don't just work to start rebuilding civilization or shifting from slavery towards more developed economies instead of regularly engaging in mass human(oid) sacrifices to maintain the seal on something much worse than post apocapyptic status quo cultural stasis. Without the cleansing wars those SKs maintaining the apocalypse are no longer also part of the cause and their extreme power seems like bizarrely unjustified plot armor.


To save everyone time and minimize the snipe hunt you seem to be asking for, here is what they kreen of athas has to say about rajaat and the cleansing wars.

Spoiler: pg3

View attachment 410075
Bonus inclusion of a page from the back of the book because it includes words
View attachment 410077
But that reminds me that beyond the prism pentad existed as a game book.

Neither of them seems to be in dse2 blackspire mountains & beyond the prism pentad mentions cleansing wars twice with rajaat being mentioned in relation to others he interacted with many many times but a quick refresh skim isn't seeming too noteworthy either.

So... is your bone of contention with "later product" actually printed in any of those game books or is your entire point focused on taking a bat to deeply interconnected setting details to make changes that avoid embellished or fabricated thirdhand retellings you've read about that themselves were based on of the same sort of second hand retellings? If there is something you think is unreasonable printed in an actual game book, can you point to a specific book that you feel embodies the "problematic content" or can we just acknowledge that you may have been given a bad impression of what was actually printed at some point in the last 30ish years & maybe shouldn't be looked to as the person to guide how to update a setting you aren't too familiar with?

I'm basically a DS originalist. That being the early boxed set prec prism Pentad.

Which basically destroyed the setting. If you redid Darksun you couldn't fit the metaphlot stuff in a new book anyway.

I wouldn't erase it I wouldn't include it. There's a difference. Leave it up to the individual DM what to include.

I've played DS 2E, 3E, 5E and recently 2E. I know the setting very well.