D&D 5E Dark Sun, problematic content, and 5E…

Is problematic content acceptable if obviously, explicitly evil and meant to be fought?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 203 89.4%
  • No.

    Votes: 24 10.6%

Let's remember the radical changes in Ravenloft, althought I suspect really it more sequel than a true reboot. But DS could be a radical reboot. For example the size of the Tablelands, if before they were like England, now they would be as big as Northamerica, to allow more space for adventures. And the City-states would become bigger, to allow more population.

The Deadlands also could be "nerferd" to allow be explored by PCs in a future DLC.

The Pentad Prims could be rewritten, but also adding more details.

The fandom is going to launch a lot of questions about the lore, for example about the rest of planets in the Athaspace. Maybe these weren't affected by the Brown Tide or the Cleasing War. How was altered the Shadowfell and the Feywild after the Brown Tide and the end of the Blue Age?

Was really lost all the life-shape biotech by fault of the defiler magic?

What if there are "legends" about children being abducted by the feys, and replaced with "simulacrum"? But these would be the perfet slaves, maybe "sold" by the parents. Maybe the children are rescued by the feys and sent to a better place, or kidnapped by agents of the sorcerer-kings (and you don't want to know their fate).
 

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pemerton

Legend
This thread has taken a strange turn.

No one and nothing, at least to the best of my knowledge, is stopping anyone from right now buying 2e and/or 4e Dark Sun content on DriveThru, and using that to play a Dark Sun game using whatever mechanical engine they prefer (obvious candidates, beyond those for which those books were published, include EotPT, Burning Wheel and 5e D&D).

That doesn't change the fact that it's obvious why WotC, given the nature of its business and its marketing, is not going to publish new Dark Sun material at this point in time. Manifestly they're not going to change that approach by using a "rated M" or whatever label. They're already using a warning label on the old stuff that they're selling!
 

Would say anybody a word if the Athasian templates were wearing morriones in the same way the vampires from Ixalan setting?

The setting is going to be rebooted, and not only about the lore but because gameplay reasons, to add more classes and species, for example. They aren't going to redesign only the Tablelands region but the complete Athaspace. WotC has to choose if the psionic ardent is going to be a paladin subclass, or if the fraals and the blue (goblin subrace) are going to be even the psionic species. Will be the wilder a subclass?

Shouldn't be enough with any disclaimer section?

I have said there is a reason to "limit" the slavery in Athas and it is because the sorcerer-kings are enough smart to allow the deception the most of citizens are free and the slavery is for criminals in forced workds of people who couldn't pay their debts. Or the sorcerer-kings use some mind-control parasite, something style yellow creeper weed. The PCs shouldn't be allowed to own slaves (paying for a rescue is different thing), among the other reasons the state is the only owner, and the slaves can't be bought but "hired".

Maybe the sorcerer-kings keep the secrets of life-shape creations, and some "pokemons" are tested in the gladiator circus arenas.

* Other option could be to create a new mini-setting style "Radiant Citadel", "Theros" or "Stryxhaven". Maybe a wildspace next to the Athaspace was settled by haflings escaping from the brown tide for the end of the blue age, and later new waves of refugees running away for the cleasing war. The worst troubles started when the cultists of the elder elemental eye discovered the defiler magic.
 

Mind of tempest

(he/him)advocate for 5e psionics
Would say anybody a word if the Athasian templates were wearing morriones in the same way the vampires from Ixalan setting?

The setting is going to be rebooted, and not only about the lore but because gameplay reasons, to add more classes and species, for example. They aren't going to redesign only the Tablelands region but the complete Athaspace. WotC has to choose if the psionic ardent is going to be a paladin subclass, or if the fraals and the blue (goblin subrace) are going to be even the psionic species. Will be the wilder a subclass?

Shouldn't be enough with any disclaimer section?

I have said there is a reason to "limit" the slavery in Athas and it is because the sorcerer-kings are enough smart to allow the deception the most of citizens are free and the slavery is for criminals in forced workds of people who couldn't pay their debts. Or the sorcerer-kings use some mind-control parasite, something style yellow creeper weed. The PCs shouldn't be allowed to own slaves (paying for a rescue is different thing), among the other reasons the state is the only owner, and the slaves can't be bought but "hired".

Maybe the sorcerer-kings keep the secrets of life-shape creations, and some "pokemons" are tested in the gladiator circus arenas.

* Other option could be to create a new mini-setting style "Radiant Citadel", "Theros" or "Stryxhaven". Maybe a wildspace next to the Athaspace was settled by haflings escaping from the brown tide for the end of the blue age, and later new waves of refugees running away for the cleasing war. The worst troubles started when the cultists of the elder elemental eye discovered the defiler magic.
two points

why would athas rearing a ritual version of a roman face mean anything, why care about some vampire wearing them?

the point is full stop there is no more way to depict slaving societies in d&d that seems to be the state for the foreseeable future.

would it not be better to see what elements could make it through instead?
 

Jolly Ruby

Privateer
How about torture scenes? Gunfights that break out in the middle of the street? Superheroes who smash up office towers while fighting supervillains? Again, we have that adrenaline rush and there is no cohesive group of survivors (and their families) of torture, gun shooting or office tower destruction who will come forward to express their hurt at seeing these depictions.
One thing that supports your argument: where I live there is a cohesive group of torture victims survivors and families of survivors. We left a ditactorship that went from the 60s to the 80s and left thousands of victims of torture, and many missing and dead people. Torture is a very sensitive topic here.
 
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Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
two points

why would athas rearing a ritual version of a roman face mean anything, why care about some vampire wearing them?

the point is full stop there is no more way to depict slaving societies in d&d that seems to be the state for the foreseeable future.

would it not be better to see what elements could make it through instead?
It would be better for them to use those elements in a new setting that adheres to the rules they've set for themselves.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
No one and nothing, at least to the best of my knowledge, is stopping anyone from right now buying 2e and/or 4e Dark Sun content on DriveThru, and using that to play a Dark Sun game using whatever mechanical engine they prefer (obvious candidates, beyond those for which those books were published, include EotPT, Burning Wheel and 5e D&D).

That doesn't change the fact that it's obvious why WotC, given the nature of its business and its marketing, is not going to publish new Dark Sun material at this point in time.
Yes, it's probably not in WotC's best interests to do so. Fair enough.

As far as I can tell, however, the call in some quarters isn't so much for WotC themselves to publish new Dark Sun material as it is for WotC to open the setting up so other people can - legally - publish new material for it should they so desire (same goes for several other settings; Birthright and Mystara are two).
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Yes, it's probably not in WotC's best interests to do so. Fair enough.

As far as I can tell, however, the call in some quarters isn't so much for WotC themselves to publish new Dark Sun material as it is for WotC to open the setting up so other people can - legally - publish new material for it should they so desire (same goes for several other settings; Birthright and Mystara are two).
Yeah. Otherwise, its, "I don't want to play with my toys, and neither can you, even if you give me credit for letting you use it".
 


There are a couple of issues that I am reluctant to bring up because I don't want to get into a prolonged argument about them, but I feel are kind of necessary for the discussion.

I bring these up not to tear the setting down or anything like that. I consider myself a fan of the setting and have run it (and would like to run it again) but I think these issues are sticking points.

1. Muls

The pronounciation as "mule" is a bit of a giveaway. Mules are, of course, horse/donkey hybrids which are sterile and experience heterosis (hybridization vigor)
Muls are human/dwarf hybrids who are sterile and tend to be stronger than either dwarves or humans.
And now I will point out the the words "mule" and "m**atto" (An offensive word for someone of mixed race) share an etymological origin.
So now when we look at the 4th edition's description of the origin of the word "Mul":

The word “mul” is derived from the Dwarven term mulzhennedar, which means “strength.” Pronunciation varies
throughout the Tyr Region; the word can be pronounced as mool, mull, or mule, although this last variation is considered derogatory and might start a fight. Given the derivation of the name, sages who care about such matters regard mull as the most accurate pronunciation.

This invented pseudo-etymology starts to look a little cringe. And I don't think I have seen this word "Mulzhennedar" prior to 4th edition. My guess is that it was invented to try to smooth over the very issue I am pointing out.

2. Roleplaying slavery in a diverse playerbase

I have run Freedom a couple of times. The first time was a disaster. I was still new to DMing, and I didn't really understand concepts like player agency. I did what the module told me to do: enslave the players, ruin any chances they have of escape, if they do escape enslave them again, treat the PC's like dirt, move them along the sequence of the events until they finally break free in the dramatic finale where they (checks notes) listen to an extended excerpt from the Verdant Passage before finally escaping by another's hand. The experience was miserable for everyone. I trusted the module, and the module lied.

I did make a second attempt. Shocking, I know. I still loved the setting (Still do) and my group wanted to try it. But this time I resolved to give the players as much agency as I was able. I thought of it like an experiment. Take them through a cliff's notes version of the module, and if they escape, they escape. And, at one point, one of my players did. He was a psionicist who was very, very good at being invisible. Late at night, he slipped out of his bonds and camp without being noticed by fellow slaves or the guards. The whole time I was fighting the urge to "invent" a reason for him to be caught. He went out into the city, and said he wanted to find an animal. I said okay, this being an urban environment, he found... a dog. I had no idea where he was going with this. Well, I guess the rotten food he was given for dinner was a bridge too far and something had to be done. So he sneaks back with his new meal. Well, the scent of cooking meat in one of the tents nearly sent the entire camp into an uproar. Some quick thinking by the players distracted the guards long enough and the players were generous enough with their catch that they managed to make it through the night. A+ session would play again.

So I bring these two experiences up so nobody misunderstands. You can have a fun session with enslaved PC's. However, it does take an experienced hand and a lot of trust in your players. If you don't, you can end up having a session like my first one, which could quite easily have turned into something truly abusive. "So we met in the slave pits" is Dark Sun's equivalent to "So we met in a tavern" and if they really want to release a product like that, they need to teach DM's how to do that ethically, which is going to be another issue.

A while back I saw a tweet from a D&D influencer who is a PoC (I won't name them because there are certain folks who read this forum that might go after them) who basically asked "why would you want to WANT to roleplay slavery?"

And my first thought was "why not?" For many of the same reasons others have pointed out in this thread. I thought about replying, but I realized the question was meant as rhetorical. After sitting with the question for a while my conclusion was that for them, the idea of actually wanting to roleplay in a game as a slave is so foreign that they can't conceive of why anyone would want to do it. The generational trauma of slavery is still very real, following black people like an albatross. It's not just an intellectual exercise for them. (At least that was my takeaway.)

I tried to think back to my experiences playing Freedom and imagined if one of my players had been black, and I can't say I would have even tried to play Freedom. The idea of everyone sitting around a table on a weekend, where I roleplay being a cruel slavemaster while they play someone who is currently a slave (however temporary that is) for FUN is just absurd.

And that means Dark Sun is not very inclusive. And if you can only play Dark Sun with white people that is a real problem for the setting and the product for ONE D&D.
 
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