D&D 5E (2014) Dark Sun, problematic content, and 5E…

[Scribe]

Which is odd given just how many problematic elements are in Curse of Strahd from domestic abuse to trafficking children to support drug habits.

Curse of Strahd was released when, and had at least one update removing some stereotypes yes?

 

[DarkCrisis]

Which is odd given just how many problematic elements are in Curse of Strahd from domestic abuse to trafficking children to support drug habits.

Curse of Strahd is a remake adventure and they did end up changing a couple things. Like who and what the Vesanti are (IE less stereotypical trope gypsy). And it was also released before they tried to change D&Ds image to be more welcoming inclusive

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

I said it time ago and I am going to say it again. We need a coherent and clear criteria about what may be potentially problematic. And we should avoid the double standars.

I remember the cartoon "Exo-Squad". it could be watched by children and it didn't show explicit violence but the plot was relative maturer than others.

If Baldurs Gate 3 had got a lot of "mature content" then we shouldn't be too surprised if a future Dark Sun videogame o novel is "no-kid-friendly".

If there is an official 5ed Dark Sun I would bet for an adventure, maybe "Freedom" or the "secret" faction of the Black Spine module "let's say the city of spires" and a generic sourcebook focused into "hyrborian-punk", and a monster manual with a chapter about the state-cities from the region of Tyr.

 

[Mark Hope]

The larger Dark Sun community has kind of just moved on without WotC. Athas.org are releasing one great product after another - and statting them for multiple editions. The Lands of the Ravaged Sun team have the first part of their campaign out. Jesse Heining just released a monster 300+ pages Dark Sun west marches campaign (Sand Marches) for free and it's amazing. There are active blogs, actual plays, organised plays, several very strong 5e conversions. I haven't seen it this active and vibrant in a good couple decades. It's an amazing time to be a Dark Sun fan. WotCs gonna WotC. They're actually kind of irelevant atm.

 

[MGibster]

Curse of Strahd is a remake adventure and they did end up changing a couple things. Like who and what the Vesanti are (IE less stereotypical trope gypsy). And it was also released before they tried to change D&Ds image to be more welcoming inclusive

They added all sorts of stuff to Curse of Strahd that wasn't in the original. Do they still print CoS? If so, are they putting a disclaimer on it these days?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Curse of Strahd was released when, and had at least one update removing some stereotypes yes?

Also, CoS is a proven money-maker. Profit has high priority than potential problematic elements.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The larger Dark Sun community has kind of just moved on without WotC. Athas.org are releasing one great product after another - and statting them for multiple editions. The Lands of the Ravaged Sun team have the first part of their campaign out. Jesse Heining just released a monster 300+ pages Dark Sun west marches campaign (Sand Marches) for free and it's amazing. There are active blogs, actual plays, organised plays, several very strong 5e conversions. I haven't seen it this active and vibrant in a good couple decades. It's an amazing time to be a Dark Sun fan. WotCs gonna WotC. They're actually kind of irelevant atm.

This is what IMO fans of all D&D settings should do: move on from hope of official 1st party content and do their own thing.

 

[ECMO3]

There are a couple of threads on this already, but I wanted to put up a poll and ask a question I had in regards to Kyle Brink’s recent statement about Dark Sun.

Q: Is problematic content acceptable in a work if it's presented as obviously and explicitly evil and meant to be fought?

I'm asking because a lot of people object to presenting problematic content at all, even if it's presented as obviously evil and meant to be fought. That somehow the mere presence of problematic content is promoting same or inherently problematic regardless of intent. That even works that decry problematic things are themselves problematic because they include problematic content. Like saying a work decrying the evils of racism is itself racist or promotes racism because it depicts racism. Or saying a work decrying the evils of slavery is itself promoting slavery because it depicts slavery.

The Dark Sun connection should be obvious, so I'll skip the details.

ETA: Apparently I should not have skipped the details. No, this is not a veiled demand that WotC publish Dark Sun. It's an honest question about problematic content in games.

So the question is, I know, incredibly complex. But for the purposes of starting this thread and the poll, I'll keep the options to a simple yes or no.

Q: Is problematic content acceptable in a work if it's presented as obviously and explicitly evil and meant to be fought?

In a historical book or textbook no. In an official publication of an RPG yes.

The latter is a game and one that affords the opportunity for players to play explicitly evil characters. You can present canabalism, eugenics and slavery and the Sorcerer Kings as explicitly evil, yet players in D&D can play "on that side".

Further it is not just those objectively morally rehensible topics that are problems with dark sun, it is also the underlying messages on religion (aetheism causes society to fall) and the environment (people in power ruin the planet) that are a problem as well for a company trying to appeal to a large audience. Playing to opposite sides of the spectrum on these themes virtually assures you are going to piss off a lot of people with what will be interpreted as thinly veiled support for conservative and liberal extremist ideals respectively.

Then there is the sexism, both in the plot lines and the art. Playing a 5E Darksun reboot recently I commented that my PC was apparently the only woman on Athas that is not a stripper in her off time.

No if you eliminate all these things - slavery, eugenics, canabalism, apparant links to modern day political dogma and sexist plot and art ..... is what you are left with still Darksun? Probably not.

 

[Faolyn]

In a historical book or textbook no. In an official publication of an RPG yes.

The latter is a game and one that affords the opportunity for players to play explicitly evil characters. You can present canabalism, eugenics and slavery and the Sorcerer Kings as explicitly evil, yet players in D&D can play "on that side".

Further it is not just those objectively morally rehensible topics that are problems with dark sun, it is also the underlying messages on religion (aetheism causes society to fall) and the environment (people in power ruin the planet) that are a problem as well for a company trying to appeal to a large audience. Playing to opposite sides of the spectrum on these themes virtually assures you are going to piss off a lot of people with what will be interpreted as thinly veiled support for conservative and liberal extremist ideals respectively.

Then there is the sexism, both in the plot lines and the art. Playing a 5E Darksun reboot recently I commented that my PC was apparently the only woman on Athas that is not a stripper in her off time.

No if you eliminate all these things - slavery, eugenics, canabalism, apparant links to modern day political dogma and sexist plot and art ..... is what you are left with still Darksun? Probably not.

I'm not sure that they would need to get rid of the environmental message. They could alter it so that it's less "people in charge" and more just as a byproduct of magic, and say that even common folk using magic caused harm, but... I'm not sure that they need to. Or should. This one is actually kind of important.

They can "get rid of slavery" by having it as a uniform evil, not something that the PCs can or should be involved in. I can't remember if they included prices for slaves in the original books, but right-out saying "PCs can't buy or sell slaves" would help (or potentially, good or neutral PCs can't buy or sell slaves). In addition, there could be a section on running DS with or without slavery, depending on what the table feels comfortable with.

I'm not 100% on what you mean by eugenics. The old MCs had numerous monsters that were created by the sorcerer-kings, which isn't all that much different from all the monsters that have historically been created by insane wizards. Just remove the idea, if it existed (I can't remember) that they were bred from the books. The DM can imagine they were grown in a vat if they wanted. Heck, there can even be art of some monster being grown in a vat. If you mean Muls, that's fairly easy--their birth isn't so abnormally dangerous to the mother as to be noteworthy, and most are born from consenting parents rather than bred for gladiatorial fighting.

Speaking of which, they can take stuff from actual Roman gladiators and run with it. In ancient Rome, they were slaves, but semi-celebrities, often literate (at least enough that there's gladiator graffiti), there were rules, and I've seen reports that they may have been at least a little bit staged (at least in fights that weren't supposed to be to the death). Dark Sun gladiators can push that to 11 and go complete WWE.

As for cannibalism, what they can do is move away from the cartoonish "savages putting people in cooking pots" and make cannibalism have societal and religious significance, like it does in some actual cultures.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Further it is not just those objectively morally rehensible topics that are problems with dark sun, it is also the underlying messages on religion (aetheism causes society to fall) and the environment (people in power ruin the planet) that are a problem as well for a company trying to appeal to a large audience.

Literally 95% of the people on Earth agree that climate change is a thing. The very loud handful of people who say otherwise (and some of that is likely performative) WotC can just write off, the way that they produce other products that they know aren't meant for everyone (see the new Ravenloft novel).