Debunking the myth there are no "heroes" in "A Song of Ice & Fire"

[Sagan Darkside]

Seeing the truth about his relationships with his brother and his sister are having a affect on him.

I still need to reread the third book, but his inner turmoil struck me as more of a case of drowning in self-pity then following a path of inner-redemption. He is not the fighter he used to be- and he knows it. He was rebuked by his sister, iirc, and it is he does love her in his own twisted little way.

SD

 

[jdavis]

I still need to reread the third book, but his inner turmoil struck me as more of a case of drowning in self-pity then following a path of inner-redemption. He is not the fighter he used to be- and he knows it. He was rebuked by his sister, iirc, and it is he does love her in his own twisted little way.

SD

He went out of his way for Brienne a couple of times (way out of his way to help her), not to mention went around his fathers back to save his brother. I agree totally with your assessment of the situation but if you read close you will catch little bits and pieces. He's not on a trail to self redemption yet, just questioning who he is, I figure Brienne will be the key, but that is based on the way these type of books normally go and this book has curved me before. He could just spiral deeper into the self pity bit till he becomes a vindictive shell of a man, either way I figure he will be the one to put the knife in Cersei.

 

[Oreon Starfall]

An excellent conversation about an excellent series. Here's some of my thoughts on things that've been already gone over:

Re: Jaime - I too see him going through a redemptive arc or becoming a shell of what he once was.

re: Arya - She's my favorite. I'm very much interested to see where she winds up. I wondered as I read through book three if Nymeria was the cause of the increased wolf activity in the places they're traveling through...

re: Jon Snow - as everybody has pretty much said he seems to be the most together of the stark children, and is a pretty cut and dried hero. Made me want to take the black. Almost.

Now, what do you all think about Syrio as a hero? He sacrificed himself that Arya would have a chance to escape. This curiosity of course stems from my belief that the Braavosi are by far the coolest minor characters in the books.

Just so!

 

[Sagan Darkside]

Now, what do you all think about Syrio as a hero? He sacrificed himself that Arya would have a chance to escape. This curiosity of course stems from my belief that the Braavosi are by far the coolest minor characters in the books.

He was a pretty cool character - another one cut down before his time.

SD

 

[RyanL]

I have a question for you guys. Last night, I was reading the chapter in which Catelyn interrogates Jaime. Jaime mentioned that he was "loved by one for a kindness [he] never performed, and reviled by many for [his] finest act." I know that his "finest act" was the murder of Aerys, but I can't recall what his "kindness" was. Can you refresh my memory?

-Ryan

 

[King_Stannis]

I have a question for you guys. Last night, I was reading the chapter in which Catelyn interrogates Jaime. Jaime mentioned that he was "loved by one for a kindness [he] never performed, and reviled by many for [his] finest act." I know that his "finest act" was the murder of Aerys, but I can't recall what his "kindness" was. Can you refresh my memory?

-Ryan

I'm not sure offhand. Did it perhaps involve Tyrion and his bride for a fortnight - I think her name was Tysha?

 

[WizarDru]

re: Arya - She's my favorite. I'm very much interested to see where she winds up. I wondered as I read through book three if Nymeria was the cause of the increased wolf activity in the places they're traveling through...

Arya's my favorite, as well. Truly the wolf's daughter, and more like her father than many were comfortable with, I think. All the Starks learn to be strong. "Winter is Coming." Indeed.

The Lannisters are all complex, even Cersei. All of them are fundamentally flawed, but that's what makes them so believable. The presence of such interesting characters and their histories (such as the childhood abuse of the Cleganes, and it's terrible self-perpetuating cycle) is what makes the series so different from many others.

It is a testament to GRRM that a reprehensible bastard like Jamie can become such an interesting and morally conflicted character (and that revealing more of his past, from his perspective, changes our view of him). So, too, is it impressive that so many characters are like onions, with layers that you continually peel back to learn more of. Like the best series, the books' greatest flaw is that they END.

 

[Mistwell]

I think you misunderstand what moral relativism is. It's not some personal belief that codes of behavior are irrelevant, it's a belief that morality varies by culture. In other words, if you grow up in a culture that (for example) emphasizes the right of the strong to abuse the weak (such as Dothraki culture, if we're talking about the books) then you're not evil for acting along those moral lines. They've been hammered into your head since childhood, and you never think twice about their validity.

Just a quick response on this, since it was addressed to me.

I believe you are incorrect. You are describing cultural relativism, not moral relativism. Moral relativism is on an individual level, not a cultural one. If one views the world through a moral relativists eyes, nobody can be "blamed" for doing evil, because the reason all people do evil is because of their individual perspective of the universe - that in their eyes they were not doing evil because of their family upbringing, the groups they run with, their mental disability, their socio-economic status, etc...In that sense it becomes a personal belief that codes of behavior are not relevant, because they vary for every individual (and not just every culture).

In this sense you could excuse Jamie for casually killing a kid for seeing him sleep with his sister, because he was brought up that way, or because he has a mental disease, or because his society accepts or encourages that behaviour, or because wealthy people like him are accepted as having personality quirks, or whatever excuse you want to come up with. I just don't think when it comes down to it that people will excuse that kind of behavior if it becomes personal. If it was YOUR kid Jamie killed, you would not seek an excuse for his behavior, but just judge it evil and end the analysis there.

 

[danbala]

I guess we just disagree on how much evil you have to do to be evil.

Tiefling, Sagan, I don't think the question is whether Jaime IS evil -- his character is clearly changing. Most cultures and religions believe in the concept of forgiveness and redemption. How you get to this place varies depending on the outlook of the religion -- however, the starting place is always a realistic appraisal of the wrongdoing and a desire to change. Both of which Jaime is now displaying. Therefore, the question to me is not whether his IS evil -- he clearly committed evil acts -- the question is whether he has repented.

 

[Sagan Darkside]

however, the starting place is always a realistic appraisal of the wrongdoing and a desire to change. Both of which Jaime is now displaying.

Forgive me for repeating myself- but I don't see him displaying that. I see self-pity and self-loathing. Those are not admirable traits of someone seeking redeem themselves.

Will we see attempts at redemption? Maybe, but I doubt it.

SD