Debunking the myth there are no "heroes" in "A Song of Ice & Fire"

[King_Stannis]

GRRM has crafted an excellent set of books that have a lot of threads going through it. So many that I am not sure if a thread is dangling because I have not made a connection or because he just has not gotten back to it.

For example: Arya stumbles upon a conversation while climbing around one of the towers- the nature of the conversation was pretty ominous, but those speaking were never identified.



SD

I think things become alot clearer when you read the books again. And, surprisingly, I am enjoying them even better the second time around because now I can hunt for detail that would have been glazed over the first time around.

By the way, if the scene you mention with Arya took place in book one when she was down in the Dragon-Skull room, the two people were (I believe): Varys and Master Illyrio (Dany and Viserys' patron).

 

[jdavis]

I think your feeling is correct. It will be interesting to see how they are going to be able to repel the Others after they have all but wiped each other out.

My theory is the book is centering around magic coming back into the world: The Others, Dany & the dragons, Bran and other events.

GRRM has crafted an excellent set of books that have a lot of threads going through it. So many that I am not sure if a thread is dangling because I have not made a connection or because he just has not gotten back to it.

For example: Arya stumbles upon a conversation while climbing around one of the towers- the nature of the conversation was pretty ominous, but those speaking were never identified.

What I think it comes down to is I need to take notes next time I read the book.

I would agree Tyrion is probably the hardest character to peg. Even though he is a pov character- trying to understand his motivation is difficult at best.

It would not suprise me if he met up with Dany. That would work out well since she is not very tactful. heh. She could use the political edge.

Sansa is my other choice for a hard to peg character. Not because of what has happened to her, but how she ends up in the end is a mystery. I could see her being a major villian/hero/side note. She has the Stark strength, but has finally stopped hiding behind the shadows of her little girl dreams to find it.

Back onto heroes- iirc, one of Dany's visions is about three people riding the dragons. I suspect these will be the three big heroes of the series.

Who will the riders be? Dany is an obvious choice. Jon is another good bet (I also have a side theory that he and Dany are related and will end up married- GRRM hammers the knowledge that the Targaeryen's often married blood.) The third rider is up in the air, but considering his physical limitations- Tyrion may be a good choice.

SD

THe book started out with them then promply ignored the heck out of them for a good while, it never really got back around to them, I figure it's comming.

Yea I figure Jon Snow's real last name might be the same as Dany's too but I have figured I knew things before and been way wrong. Arya abandoning the Hound sort of took me by suprise as did a couple of other plot twist.

I used to keep note cards when I read the Wheel of Time books (don't need them anymore) I should start using them for these books.

 

[King_Stannis]

I used to keep note cards when I read the Wheel of Time books (don't need them anymore) I should start using them for these books.

I have taken to making flowcharts of the people and their houses based on the appendix information in the back of the books. It does help you see some things that you wouldn't normally notice.

Of course I refuse to do this for the Freys. Well, then again, if I have the time......

 

[Sagan Darkside]

THe book started out with them then promply ignored the heck out of them for a good while, it never really got back around to them, I figure it's comming.

In an odd way their presence has been felt- the people that lived beyond the Black Wall came together and decided to flee south. I am pretty sure that fear of the Others was their motivation.

Of course, that just lead to the further weakening of both sides. Silly human nature.

SD

 

[jdavis]

In an odd way their presence has been felt- the people that lived beyond the Black Wall came together and decided to flee south. I am pretty sure that fear of the Others was their motivation.

Of course, that just lead to the further weakening of both sides. Silly human nature.

SD

Be nice to get some answers on what they actually are, or what they want, and if they have some connection to the tree groves dedicated to the old gods. They keep poping up then disappearing again without any answers. Yea I figure in the end that the war in the south was the worst posible thing that could of happened, not to mention the fact that the wall is so undermanned, or that the armies of the north basically got crushed but hey that's good drama. You got to wonder what all is supposed to happen in the next book (isn't supposed to cover 5 years?), guess those Dragons will be putting on some weight by then too.

 

[Tiefling]

By the way, if the scene you mention with Arya took place in book one when she was down in the Dragon-Skull room, the two people were (I believe): Varys and Master Illyrio (Dany and Viserys' patron).

GRRM has confirmed that this is the case.

I hold no sympathy for evil people- they deserve whatever suffering their behavior has brought upon them. Nor do I understand those that do hold sympathy for evil people.

Note- that is not an invitiation for a discussion of why people might give such sympathy. This is not the proper place for such a discussion.

You probably shouldn't have brought it up, then. Stating your opinion on an issue and then telling people that they're not allowed to respond is pretty low.

Personally, I think that letting people suffer from past transgressions does nothing to help the world and could quite possibly make things worse. I believe it is preferable to help people overcome whatever mental conditions or abuse or cultural beliefs they have that would cause them to do such things.

[In response to a query about Jaime's morality] Evil- and I have to wonder about anyone who thinks otherwise.

Now, I'm not saying that this is an invalid opinion. I've heard other people say same thing. But they never seem to give their reasons, and therefore I can never understand why they think that way. So could you explain?

Most of the planet believes this to be the case. I happen to believe most people who claim to be relativists actually are not. Otherwise you would have a lot more murder, a lot more rape, a lot more crime in general. Because if those things are not immoral on an absolutist level, then (other than the threat of being caught) what would stop you from engaging in those acts?

I think you misunderstand what moral relativism is. It's not some personal belief that codes of behavior are irrelevant, it's a belief that morality varies by culture. In other words, if you grow up in a culture that (for example) emphasizes the right of the strong to abuse the weak (such as Dothraki culture, if we're talking about the books) then you're not evil for acting along those moral lines. They've been hammered into your head since childhood, and you never think twice about their validity.

Anyway...

I'm really waiting for Sansa right now. In the first book she was pretty boring, the next two books make her more interesting and the end of the third book sets her up to possibly become one of the coolest characters later on. People who've attended GRRM's readings from A Feast for Crows reported on the ASOIAF board that her first chapter ends with her telling Petyr Baelish something (forget what) because "that's what he would like to hear." Perhaps she'll learn from Baelish and become a real player. Although it's unlikely, I think it would be cool if she turns in to a much more interesting and complex Cersei.

Some people complain about Jon Snow because his major disadvantage and internal conflict, his bastard blood, has been marginalized by joining the Night's Watch. This changes a bit at the end of the third book, and perhaps it will re-emerge in the next ones. Here's hoping.

I'm not sure Tywin Lannister is such an evil character, really. There's no denying that he's ruthless (I don't know who Ruth is, but he doesn't have her). I can never forgive him for his treatment of Tyrion, but I understand his reasons, in the same way that I can never forgive Catelyn for her treatment of Jon Snow, but I understand her reasons. After all, his wife, who he is said to have loved very much, died when Tyrion was born. He recognized what Cersei was, what Joffrey became, and why Tommen had to be seperated from her. His major "evil" acts? Well, he was partially responsible with what happened to Alayaya, I can't argue with that. And, of course, he helped arrange the Red Wedding. I dunno if that's more evil than having thousands of soldiers and peasants die as the result of a drawn out war. And he did make known to Tyrion his displeasure at *ahem* the treatment of the dead.

Jaime. Well, I'm not sure that he's evil either. Even if you faulted him for killing Aerys initially (which I didn't), can you still hold it against him after what he tells Brienne in the third book? His evil thing is having his men kill Ned's in the first book. Not a nice thing to do, but Ned did claim that he had ordered Catelyn to kidnap Jaime's brother. I wouldn't be so happy about that either. Oh, and throwing Bran out the window (happened so early I've almost forgotten). I can't argue with that, though clearly he believed that Bran was spying on them. Still, I think Jaime's realizing what he has become, and isn't happy about it. The only other bad thing I can think of him doing (constantly mocking most everyone, especially Brienne) doesn't qualify him as evil, even if I did classify people as good or evil.

Catelyn always bothered me, not so much for her treatment of Jon, as explained above, but because she was always so whiny, going on about how she had failed in her duty, and Oh! her poor Ned! and Robb is so young to bear the burden of a crown and so on.

But who's the most interesting and complex character is? Gregor Clegane.

 

[Pants]

But who's the most interesting and complex character is? Gregor Clegane.

Gregor SMASH! Gregor KILL! GRRRRRRRR....

 

[Sagan Darkside]

You probably shouldn't have brought it up, then. Stating your opinion on an issue and then telling people that they're not allowed to respond is pretty low.

I was not telling people they were not allowed to respond- I just believe it will further hijack this thread away from the books into a philosophical discussion. I like such discussions, but this is not the thread for it. People can respond all they wish, but as with yours.. though I am tempted.. I will let it go.

Now, I'm not saying that this is an invalid opinion. I've heard other people say same thing. But they never seem to give their reasons, and therefore I can never understand why they think that way. So could you explain?

He attempts to kill a seven year old because the child happened upon him having sex with his sister. He did so with any hesitation- as if he was swatting away a fly, and even made a sarcastic comment at the time. People who do that are evil. You are welcome to consider it mentally ill or being from a different culture, but I call it evil. (lost to temptation on that one)

I can't argue with that, though clearly he believed that Bran was spying on them.

I don't think that is clear at all, but even if that is the case- there is no justification for attempting to murder a child.

But who's the most interesting and complex character is? Gregor Clegane.

I suppose a self-loathing over flowing bottle of rage is a bit complex. heh.

SD

 

[Tiefling]

I guess we just disagree on how much evil you have to do to be evil.

 

[jdavis]

You probably shouldn't have brought it up, then. Stating your opinion on an issue and then telling people that they're not allowed to respond is pretty low.

I've already blown up and had to edit a post on this one, this is a thread about a book not about real world morals, almost everybody in this book is a murderer by modern standards, so lets get over that. That is a off topic discussion for the general forum. I like these books and want to talk about these books here.

He attempts to kill a seven year old because the child happened upon him having sex with his sister. He did so with any hesitation- as if he was swatting away a fly, and even made a sarcastic comment at the time. People who do that are evil. You are welcome to consider it mentally ill or being from a different culture, but I call it evil. (lost to temptation on that one)

I think the big thing here with Jamie is that he is starting to realize that he is a vile evil person (who sleeps with his sister) and is not happy about it. He really doesn't seem to like himself all that well. He is evil in the first two books, but by the end of the third he is swinging away from it, who knows where he will end up (he's on the 12 step program to overcoming incest and attepted child murder). I think that his captivity and maiming, not to metion being stuck with Brienne have had a affect on him. Now trying to murder a child is evil regardless of the circumstances, of course he is so much of a pawn for his sister that you have to question if he is even in control of himself in the earlier books. Seeing the truth about his relationships with his brother and his sister are having a affect on him.

Some people complain about Jon Snow because his major disadvantage and internal conflict, his bastard blood, has been marginalized by joining the Night's Watch. This changes a bit at the end of the third book, and perhaps it will re-emerge in the next ones. Here's hoping.

Jon Snow is my favorite character in the book, he is the good guy, I never really saw him get angry about being a bastard, he just sort of dealt with it, he never whined about not being a full member of the family ( I don't care for Catelyn where this issue stands either) he just made his own way in the world, heck he has had the chance to go back and inherit but he chose to stay on the wall. He does what is right regardless of the cost to himself. I figure he will end up a larger part of the next couple of books. From the start I had him pegged as who the story was really about, I figure he will move to the center as time goes by.

I am quite fond of Tyrion too. He does some pretty nasty and evil things but it would be hard to call him evil, there always seems to be justification for what he does no matter how bad or evil it is. He has been in the center of the story for awhile now and I figure he will stay important.