Defeat The Vile 5' Step

[Storyteller01]

all great ideas I especally like the pressing attack feat. We pretty much play low level games as we start out at 1st always, and the game were in right now is fairly low magic. So some options wont work and others arent fesible. I just think that the 5' step is abused and broken as far as escaping combat that is, if you want to run away use the withdrawl action but taking a 5 to leave combat only to full attack with a bow just dosent seem right it hobbles the fighters. And most mages use 5' step to d door away and peper you with spells. Like I said its mainly used to get away from fighters who are clobbering you.

Dragonstar makes the Pressing Attack feat a most for any melee fighter. It does need Combat Reflexes as a prereq though...

 

[apesamongus]

Screw the AoO. Seriously, let the archer step 5' and get a couple of attacks off. Then you 5' and hit him 5 times with a big strength bonus. He's gonna fall down first. It's not like he has an advantage over you - you're on essentially even ground, you all get a full attack action. That's why the 5' step is there to begin with, so the archer is just slightly inconvenienced (by being vulnerable to being boxed in) instead of being gimped.

And, if you really need to interrupt a caster, let your buddy the caster do it, or have your own archer, have quick draw and ready a thrown weapon.

 

[apesamongus]

but taking a 5 to leave combat only to full attack with a bow just dosent seem right it hobbles the fighters.

How so? What about that tactic hobbles the fighter?

 

[Felnar]

if you're okay with the 5ft step back and full-attack, because "hey, the swordsmen
could just 5ft step and full-attack back",
what is the point of using a sword at all?
ie. where's the downside to having a ranged weapon?

i'd use a system similar to Terevar's (post #24), with one slight difference.
if someone moves, you have the option of following, but your
movement provokes AoO's as normal.
This way the archer or longspearmen actually experience the downside to their range.

Honestly, when was the last time you let an archer step
back and shoot you in the face 5 times?

- Felnar

 

[Diirk]

if you're okay with the 5ft step back and full-attack, because "hey, the swordsmen
could just 5ft step and full-attack back",
what is the point of using a sword at all?
ie. where's the downside to having a ranged weapon?

The lousy damage, for starters (No x1.5 str to damage, no power attack, generally lower str bonus to damage etc). Not to mention the difficulty of sneak attacks, penalties for firing into combat, and more.

 

[ThirdWizard]

if you're okay with the 5ft step back and full-attack, because "hey, the swordsmen
could just 5ft step and full-attack back",
what is the point of using a sword at all?
ie. where's the downside to having a ranged weapon?

In 3.5 archery isn't nearly as good as it was in 3.0. It is definately less powerful than melee combat. The benefit is that you generally arn't going to be near the enemy and in danger. Hopefully. While archery is a very viable tactic, an archer isn't going to go toe to toe with a melee character in most situations and come out on top.

Downsides include:
Dex for attack, Str for damage, and Str costs money to get applied
Many magical enhancements can't be placed on bows/arrows
Bows are easier to sunder than many melee weapons
You have a limited supply of ammunition
You draw an AoO from anyone beside you.

There are many ways to get around the 5' step and full attack. Flanking is a good one. Also you can ready an action to attack them when they shoot you, which means you can 5' step when they attack, provoking an AoO they didn't see coming and then get another attack on them. But, just attacking will usually be enough because they usually arn't built for that kind of one-on-one action.

Honestly, when was the last time you let an archer step
back and shoot you in the face 5 times?

- Felnar

Around the last time I cast a spell.


EDIT: If this is abusive, I'd hate to see people's thoughts on the "I ready an action to attack them then step back 5' as soon as they attack me, thus nullifying their own attack while getting my own. And I'll do that next round, too."

 

[Bront]

The lousy damage, for starters (No x1.5 str to damage, no power attack, generally lower str bonus to damage etc). Not to mention the difficulty of sneak attacks, penalties for firing into combat, and more.

Also, the fact that you actualy HAVE to take a 5 foot step can hurt. You can't always take one, and it can be a tactical disadvantage to always have to move or retreat. A melee fighter can make a stand, stand his ground and fight. A ranged fighter has to back off if someone charges him.

Also, unlike melee combat, you need 2 good stats to influince attacks and damage, not just one.

 

[moritheil]

If your PC wizards are laughing when your NPCs fighters engage them in melee....you need new NPC fighters. Ask around...people here love to optimize builds.

Shadows, wraiths, or the like, with class levels. They can be fighters.

 

[Whimsical]

.

From the Dragonstar: Starfarer's Handbook, pg. 89.

Pressing Attack [General]
You are skilled at seizing every advantage and keeping your opponent on the defensive.
Prerequisite: Combat Reflexes.
Benefit: This feat allows you to follow an opponent who tries to step back from an area you threaten. The opponent must be in an area you threaten at the beginning of his action. If the opponent takes a 5-foot step to an area you do not threaten, you may immediately take a 5-foot step of your own to any unoccupied space where you again threaten the opponent. If no such space is available, you cannot use this feat. You may only use this feat once per round.

This is also good if you are playing in a game that uses the 5-foot step rules as written, but are annoyed by those pesky spellcasters not getting their comeuppance when they cheat you with magic instead of fighting you like a man.

"So you are saying that I should toss away my wand and come down and fight you like a man? I'm sorry, but I don't fight like a man; I fight like an evil overlord." ZAP "Hm. Actually, I'm not sorry at all."

 

[Coredump]

1: first round move into combat and hold action to follow. If the archer / mage stays in combat and attacks / casts you get an AoO if they move 5' you can follow if they move more you get an AoO and can follow.

You can't ready an action to follow. (I coudn't find anything about 'hold', so either you meant 'ready' or I should have looked more)
If you ready an action, you go before they do. So you can ready an action to go if they try and move, but then you have to go before they go, and thus are not following.

2: if your already engaged and the archer / mage wants to 5' step you to death. Attack as standard action and hold action to follow if they leave. Since you didnt move you can move 5 with them and if they move more than 5 you get an attack, maybe a trip to keep them there, or charge them next round as they most likely cant move more than 40 in a single action.

This one has problems. It assumes you are right next to them on your turn. Unless you closed on the surprise round and win initiative, it isn't likely to happen. And the same problem with going before they do.

*If* you are next to a caster/archer and it is your turn. (ie, you have not moved at all) you can ready an attack if they try and attack you. Then if they 5' step and attack, you can 5'step and attack (before their attack) And then also get AoO's on them if they still want to attack you.


But I don't see a way to 'follow' someone without an additional feat.