Defeat The Vile 5' Step

[apesamongus]

Archers have an advantage in clear open terrain. In a cluttered environment, they are so much meat. Even along a straight corridor, they have problems, unless when don't mind shooting their friends in the back. -8 to shoot into combat (-4 to not hit his friend and +4 AC from the cover his friend gives me) is no joke, even for high-level archers. Sure, Precise Shot gets rid of that, but that is not in your 1 feat premise, is it?

Precise shot only gets rid of the -4, the cover is still there.

 

[Caeleddin]

Apesamongus - That's right. You only negate the -4 firing into melee with PS. It is IPS that gets rid of cover. I stand corrected.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

Felnar, true - quickdraw is the only requirement, but without those other feats it becomes a very suboptimal choice for a strong fighter. Without Power/Brutal throw, the damage is going to plummet compared to the 'normal' 2 handed weapon bashing. Point blank and Precise shot are pretty essential if you're going to be firing into melee...

There's still the magical problem - getting enough magical projectiles to keep up a volley of effective throws is not easy. And that's the real kicker for me.

IMO, it's a nice backup choice, but I think there are 'better' ways to spend the feats to get tactical flexibility.

Perhaps my experience differs to yours, but I've seen a number of ranged builds in play. Most of them have been pretty comparable 'usefulness' to melee guys* - and have their strengths in different situations. I've not seen the 5' step back offer some horrendous advantage to the ranged attackers - At the point where they are toe to toe with a melee guy they've got some pretty huge problems already, at least it stops them being totally useless?

* - 1 excpetion - the archer cleric was way over the top - but that was more from clerical issues and a janky magical relic rather than archery...

 

[Caeleddin]

Inconsequential - How so, excluding the magical item?

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

Inconsequential - How so, excluding the magical item?

It was mean stuff:

He had a relic bow that adjusted it's bonus to fit the users strength... from complete divine.

Had the usual ranged feats. Then used Divine Metamagic: Persistant Spell to get all day Righteous Might and Divine Power. Added a little buffing on top of that - divine favour worked nicely. All in all, he put out a lot of attacks, was very accurate and did a huge amount of damage. Had some method of making his bow lawful and holy (item, oil or spell?) which didn't help any.

Dispels would really ruin his day... but it was still a very unpleasant setup when it worked...

Made worse because it was a one off and the GM wasn't quite sure how to deal with it! All in all a horrible exercise in munchkinism, but it was meant to be a silly one off.

 

[Nail]

IME, archers are nasty, and the 5ft step allows them tactical flexibility.

BUT: there are all sorts of tactics and combat situations that shut them down. Just ask my group's archer. (One that hasn't been mentioned: DR. Compare to greatsword/greataxe.)

As for the wizard 5-step/DD: you know the wizard can't take any actions after a DD, right?

If the Wizard is in melee combat, he's in major trouble.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The standard rule, repeated over and over by WotC, is that if the text and the table disagree, the text takes precedence.

Agreed.

The text describing sunder, beginning on p. 158, starts with "You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon..." Note they're defining it, in the text, as a melee attack, not a standard action. It is, in fact, the same phrase they use to describe disarm attempts.

Alternatively, they are defining it as a standard action which requires you to make a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning - and not a piercing - weapon.

Text and table are in contradiction.

No, they aren't. The table says that it is a standard action.

The text says it requires a melee attack with a particular kind of weapon.

In a way, it is no different from:

MANYSHOT [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6

Benefit: As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet. Both arrows use the same attack roll (with a –4 penalty) to determine success and deal damage normally (but see Special).

For every five points of base attack bonus you have above +6, you may add one additional arrow to this attack, to a maximum of four arrows at a base attack bonus of +16. However, each arrow after the second adds a cumulative –2 penalty on the attack roll (for a total penalty of –6 for three arrows and –8 for four).

Damage reduction and other resistances apply separately against each arrow fired.

In one section, they refer to Manyshot as a standard action (analogous to the table for Sunder). In another section, they refer to Manyshot as an attack (analogous to the text for Sunder).

Manyshot does not contradict itself, and therefore neither does Sunder.

 

[blargney the second]

Just to note, that once you get to a certain level a mage doesn't need to worry about being right next to a warrior if he's been keeping his Concentration skill up (Defensive Casting).

Defensive casting doesn't help against someone who's readied an action to disrupt spellcasting...

 

[focallength]

Man o man, tons of great ideas and tons of mine shot down, but this is what I was looking for.
One main problem is we are fairly low level most of the time, so archers can get at least 2 sometimes more shots as a standard action where a low level fighter gets one and our DM likes to give the NPCS the magic items and us none so we get slaughtered by bane weapons and guys that cant be hurt unless you have magic weapons or wizards who have full elemental protection and fireball you while your grappling them (actually it was a magic item not a spell) And you can do just as much damage as a fighter if not more as a archer, especially when they have insane AC and 5' step away shoot you 3 times as a standard action and bound away 40'. Also a lot of my problems stem from the game, and difficulties Im having in the campaign. Dont get me wrong the group is awesome and so is the game Im just perturbed and on a mission.

 

[Nail]

I know people keep mentioning it, but readying an attack to disrupt spell casting is almost never a good idea. Far better to just pound on the mage with a full attack.