Defeat The Vile 5' Step

[shurai]

if you're okay with the 5ft step back and full-attack, because "hey, the swordsmen
could just 5ft step and full-attack back",
what is the point of using a sword at all?
ie. where's the downside to having a ranged weapon?

I don't think anyone mentioned it, but the loss for me would be, hmm, not threatening an area. This is a significant tactical sacrifice!

-S

 

[Felnar]

The lousy damage, for starters (No x1.5 str to damage, no power attack, generally lower str bonus to damage etc). Not to mention the difficulty of sneak attacks, penalties for firing into combat, and more.

fine, use a thrown weapon, like a trident or shortspear
get the feats point blank shot, presice shot, quick draw, brutal throw, and power throw
is that ever worse than a melee weapon?
heck, you even get +1 to hit within 30ft

In 3.5 archery isn't nearly as good as it was in 3.0. It is definately less powerful than melee combat. The benefit is that you generally arn't going to be near the enemy and in danger. Hopefully. While archery is a very viable tactic, an archer isn't going to go toe to toe with a melee character in most situations and come out on top.

Downsides include:
Dex for attack, Str for damage, and Str costs money to get applied
Many magical enhancements can't be placed on bows/arrows
Bows are easier to sunder than many melee weapons
You have a limited supply of ammunition
You draw an AoO from anyone beside you.

as above, use thrown weapon and those feats
and just dont throw your last weapon
brutal throw eliminates the extra dex need, although high dex never hurt either
having a high dex benefits you on initative, reflex saves and AC too (chain shirt and 18 dex is comparable to full plate)

it takes 4 feats not useful in standard melee,
but a fighter should have a ranged weapon anyway

how is this worse than a standard melee fighter?
it's not, it adds tactical options, with no drawbacks

- Felnar

Edit: oops, forgot to restate my overall point, that the tactical advantage of range should come with a disadvantage

 

[Mouseferatu]

No, you can't.

Sunder does not have the "This may be used in place of an attack" footnote, unlike Grapple, Disarm, and Trip.

Accordingly, Sundering is its own standard action.

You know, I've seen this argued before, and I don't buy it.

The standard rule, repeated over and over by WotC, is that if the text and the table disagree, the text takes precedence.

The text describing sunder, beginning on p. 158, starts with "You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon..." Note they're defining it, in the text, as a melee attack, not a standard action. It is, in fact, the same phrase they use to describe disarm attempts.

Text and table are in contradiction. Text trumps table. The FAQ confirms this, and while the FAQ is hardly foolproof, when combined with the above contradiction in the main book, it seems pretty clear-cut to me.

 

[moritheil]

fine, use a thrown weapon, like a trident or shortspear
get the feats point blank shot, presice shot, quick draw, brutal throw, and power throw
is that ever worse than a melee weapon?
heck, you even get +1 to hit within 30ft

You're telling me you can build a shortspear thrower that consistently dishes out more damage than a two-handed, power attacking greatsword wielder, with an equal number of feats and equal stats to distribute? I'm impressed, and I'd like to see the build.

 

[Felnar]

You're telling me you can build a shortspear thrower that consistently dishes out more damage than a two-handed, power attacking greatsword wielder, with an equal number of feats and equal stats to distribute? I'm impressed, and I'd like to see the build.

well...
nothing i've said stops the "shortspear thrower" from using a greatsword IN ADDITION to throwing spears. He has power attack after all. And it only takes the Quick Draw feat to throw multiple spears. Everything else just makes it better.

my whole point is to show that a 5ft step back, then full ranged attack is lame/unbalanced, because it costs next to nothing to be proficient in, and gives a huge tactical advantage

a level 11 human fighter with at least 13 strength could have:
power attack
cleave
-great cleave
-improved bull rush
-shock trooper
&
quick drawpoint blank shot
-far shot
-presice shot
brutal throw
-power throw

this could act as your standard charging power attacker, but, with a simple free 5ft step back, can launch a full-iterative thrown power attack with 40ft range increment(and +1 to hit within 30). After the ranged attacks you're left holding your sword and threatening squares. For added fun, get the "throw anything" feat to start chucking greatswords instead.

And, depending how you read the cleave feat description, all the thrown attacks can cleave. The description doesnt specify that the initial attack has to be a melee, only that the extra attack gained is a melee attack with the same weapon. I'm thinking skip-rocks (but thats probably best left to a seperate thread)

please forgive anything i missed, i'm still learning 3rd Ed
this is all core except 3 feats from the "Complete ____" series
- Felnar

 

[Caeleddin]

Yes.

And the 13th level Melee Fighter can have:

Monkey Grip (?)
Power Attack
TWF
ITWF
GTWF
Cleave
WF (GreatSword)
GWF (GS)
WS (GS)
GWS (WS)
That feat the reduces/eliminates TWF penalties
Quickdraw
The throw anything feat

You want to throw your dinky spears against a guy that is gonna whale on you 7 times with Greatswords? Or chuck them at you with his full seven attacks?

I don't have the Complete **** Series, so I am assuming that what I said is possible and if not, Quickdraw and Throw anything feats are expendable, as is Cleave, to make up the pre-requisites.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

Felnar - there's one big factor you're definitely missing there - the weapons... Mr Greatsword only needs to buy one magical weapon. Mr Throwy is going to be throwing a lot of lower powered stuff? Makes a big difference.

IMO, the investment in:

quick draw
point blank shot
far shot
presice shot
brutal throw
power throw

is not insignificant. That's a lot of feats... Mr Throwy has a neat trick, but Mr Greatsword has 6 'spare' feats to learn something interesting?

 

[Felnar]

People are forgetting what this thread is about... the fact that the free 5 foot step gives a huge advantage to ranged attackers. I'm trying to give an example of a character who can do everything the standard fighter can do, but can also instantly have all the benefits of a rangedweapon fighter without having the downside of ranged combat in melee (AoO's).

Inconsequenti-AL: only quick draw is required. the others just augement it.
Again, the point is that ONE FEAT lets the melee fighter step back and throw a full attack of spears. Big tactical advantage, ie. step back from your melee opponent and throw a bunch of spears to kill everything threatening your party's wizard, while your melee opponent sits patiently and watches you do it.

Caeleddin: Monkey Grip doesnt work with your off hand weapon. Anyway, 7+ melee attacks is NOT the same as 3 ranged attacks. I'm talking tactics here. The thrower could easily replace his charging feats with TWF feats and have those same 7 attacks, only with range. Maybe i'm the only one who plays in games where the enemy isnt always nicely clumped together. You cant always charge once, then full attack till the encounter is over.

hopefully that made my point clear...
- Felnar

 

[Caeleddin]

Felnar - It seems that it is you that forgot what the thread is about. Sure, he takes a 5 foot step and unloads 5 arrows (with rapid shot). However, that implies he is 5 feet away from the fully pissed off Fighter with 7 attacks with melee weapons at his full Str bonus AND Power Attack. Having played the game as a melee sword n board fighter facing archers, I can say that it was a JOY to move around them and flank them willy-nilly. +2 from flanking means +2 damage from Power Attack. Archers mean no shield, which means another 2-4 damage from PA compared to a like build to mine. A shield in one hand means it is less likely an archer can hit me to begin with. Sure, let them do a machine gun.... if they can hit.


Archers have an advantage in clear open terrain. In a cluttered environment, they are so much meat. Even along a straight corridor, they have problems, unless when don't mind shooting their friends in the back. -8 to shoot into combat (-4 to not hit his friend and +4 AC from the cover his friend gives me) is no joke, even for high-level archers. Sure, Precise Shot gets rid of that, but that is not in your 1 feat premise, is it?

 

[apesamongus]

if you're okay with the 5ft step back and full-attack, because "hey, the swordsmen
could just 5ft step and full-attack back",
what is the point of using a sword at all?
ie. where's the downside to having a ranged weapon?

#1 Having to make that 5' step and having the vulnerability to being blocked in
#2 Not threatening
#3 Either having no stat based bonus to damage or having one stat for hit and another for damage.
#4 Composite bow users vulnerable to disarm by strength debuff
#5 Ammunition
#6 Protection from arrows (s/w 2) Windwall (s/w/c 3) - for bow users
#7 crappy damage/crit vs melee - for thrown weapons
#8 Burn a feat on quick draw - for thrown weapons