Defense!

[twosteppre]

I'm interested in the opinions of folks as to what builds would be best suited to overall defense. That is, who would do the best at avoiding any given attack to AC/F/R/W. This could be either by straight-up high defenses or fancy abilities (like Halflings). The overall idea is the argument for which build would best be able to avoid a hit by any given attack that targets them. Interesting sub-questions to this might be whether high stats are superior to fancy abilities, and which defenses should be favored (i.e., whether higher AC is more beneficial than Will is more beneficial than Fort, etc.).

Personally, I'm inclined to think a Human Paladin. It seems obviously logical that a defender would be the best route to go for defense. Also, I think high stats and a strong balance would make for the best overall defense. Both class and race give a bonus to each of F, R, and W, they're given plate training for free, and they seem best suited to having high/respectable stats in each of the three "areas" (i.e, STR/CON, INT/DEX, and CHA/WIS).

But then, I'll be the first to admit I'm not the best at coming up with the "best build" for just about anything, and my current knowledge of 4e is quite limited. So, what do other people think?

 

[Majushi]

at level 1?

I would try:

Halfling Rogue w/Artful Dodge in Hide Armor (20 Dex + Armor Prof: Hide)

10 + 5 + 3 = 18 (23 vs Opp. Attacks)

 

[Oompa]

I'm interested in the opinions of folks as to what builds would be best suited to overall defense. That is, who would do the best at avoiding any given attack to AC/F/R/W. This could be either by straight-up high defenses or fancy abilities (like Halflings). The overall idea is the argument for which build would best be able to avoid a hit by any given attack that targets them. Interesting sub-questions to this might be whether high stats are superior to fancy abilities, and which defenses should be favored (i.e., whether higher AC is more beneficial than Will is more beneficial than Fort, etc.).

Personally, I'm inclined to think a Human Paladin. It seems obviously logical that a defender would be the best route to go for defense. Also, I think high stats and a strong balance would make for the best overall defense. Both class and race give a bonus to each of F, R, and W, they're given plate training for free, and they seem best suited to having high/respectable stats in each of the three "areas" (i.e, STR/CON, INT/DEX, and CHA/WIS).

But then, I'll be the first to admit I'm not the best at coming up with the "best build" for just about anything, and my current knowledge of 4e is quite limited. So, what do other people think?

An bit off-topic.. But build whatever you find fun to play! Look at the concept you want to play and then look at how you can max his defenses..

Dont chose an class so you can have the highest defenses.. chose an class you really wanna play..

 

[twosteppre]

An bit off-topic.. But build whatever you find fun to play! Look at the concept you want to play and then look at how you can max his defenses..

Dont chose an class so you can have the highest defenses.. chose an class you really wanna play..

I think you may be misinterpreting the purpose of this discussion. I'm not looking to build a character with the highest defenses for play. This is purely a mental challenge designed to engage people's knowledge of the rules and see what fun things everyone can come up with. This about rules and finding an original way to learn the ins and outs of a system we're all new to, not choosing a character.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Well, I'm not one to build for defense, but I sure think it's important.
After all, a good offense may be the best defense, but glass cannons break.

My human fighter, for instance ... bought a 20 strength.
Statline at level 1:
20 str, 10 con, 13 dex, 8 int, 13 wis, 10 cha
Bastard Sword & board
Defenses: 19 AC, 18 fortitude, 14 reflex, 12 will

Yes, if I were to build for defense (i.e. have 18 strength), I would have a lot more stat points to spread out.
But .. I fear being hit in the fortitude most of all ('cos of the status effects), so 20 str works out for me.
I intend to take great fortitude as soon as I can, too (via retrain, and shield specialization also at level 11) ...

The build is scary offensively, and is admittedly somewhat weak in surges, but does the defender job well.
"Think about hitting anyone else, and I'll decapitate you."

The idea is a very simple one.
Work on 2 defenses (with a little handshake towards reflex).
Entire party builds towards offense (and also in favour of 2 defenses each).
Annihilate threats in record time (e.g. foes that target will).
Cycle party order if (for instance) the majority of foes target will.

 

[Zetesofos]

at level 1?

I would try:

Halfling Rogue w/Artful Dodge in Hide Armor (20 Dex + Armor Prof: Hide)

10 + 5 + 3 = 18 (23 vs Opp. Attacks)

Ahem, you forgot an extra +2 AC against OA for being a halfling (Nimble Reaction). Therefore, 25 AC .

 

[theNater]

Okay, things to consider:

1. AC needs to be higher than others, because AC is probably more likely to be targeted and attacks targeting AC usually have higher bonuses.
2. Reflex can be increased by a shield, so we don't need to spend as many ability points on dex or int if we have heavy armor and a good shield.
3. We're not interested in anything but defenses, so we can do strange builds.

Let's try a paladin, plate armor and heavy shield, and give him high stats from the fort and will pairs. Using a 16, 16, 12, 10, 10 array gives us(with the 12 boosting ref):
AC 20
ref 14
fort 14
will 14
Very well rounded, and a human can turn those 14s into two 15s and a 16. Nice and solid.

But we might be able to squeeze some more points out of it by taking a class that focuses on one defense. We can't beat 20 for a starting AC, and doing it with hide requires a 20 dex or 20 int, which costs us too many ability points. So let's try fighter. We'll get a +2 to fort instead of +1 to everything, so we don't need as much fort from abilities. To balance defenses, we'll use an 18, 12, 12, 10, 10, 10 array. With the 18 on will and the 12s on fort and ref, we get:
AC 19
ref 13
fort 13
will 14
Ouch. Ouch ouch ouch. Not getting the class bonus spread out meant we needed to increase one of our abilities too much to make up for not having a class bonus there. 'Course, a fighter who goes from a 14, 14, 14, 12, 12, 11 array gets:
AC 19
ref 14
fort 14
will 12
which isn't any better.

Yeah, I'm not seeing anything better than a human paladin. Which I find heartening, because it means that to get the best defenses just take the race with the best racial defense bonuses and the class with the best class defense bonuses and you're done! If that's actually how it works, I approve.

 

[Wish]

Well, I'm not one to build for defense, but I sure think it's important.
After all, a good offense may be the best defense, but glass cannons break.

Not only do glass cannons break, they break the whole party.

In 3.5/3.0 if you've got one guy mauling the enemy and getting mauled back, you can just keep dumping healing into him. Total healing capacity in the party was the limiting factor for party durability. In 4ed, that doesn't work. You can heal him a bunch, but when he's out of surges, the whole party is done, no matter how much healing they may have left. Each individual's healing capacity now limits the entire party.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Optimised party does not need a healer in 3e. No encounter of EL +3 should survive past 2 rounds.
Polymorph effects, wands, even teleport if you're desperate, but clerics could freely channel negative energy and prep combat spells.

In 4e, strikers are glass cannons. They run out of surges. Hence the defender are supposed to take some of their heat.
Monsters aren't stupid, and if they have some sort of commander, concentrated fire on a squishy should be expected.
Out-tanking is only a valid tactic vs. the disorganised.
Offensive is still optimal.

 

[Mengu]

It's a toss up between Human and Halfling Paladin

Common defensive abilities:
Divine Mettle
Lay on Hands
Bolstering Strike
Enfeebling Strike
Fearsome Smite

Halfling Paladin
Str 10, Con 14, Dex 15, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 18
AC 20, Fort 13, Refl 13, Will 15
Second Chance
Lost in the Crowd

Human Paladin
Str 10, Con 14, Dex 13, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 18
AC 20, Fort 14, Refl 13, Will 16
Human Perseverance
Toughness