D&D 5E Designer apathy and sunk costs, The reason the sorcerer is doomed to uncanny valley one-trick-ponieness.

[Marandahir]

My main fix for the Sorcerer is to give every subclass an expanded list of spells that don't count toward its known spell maximums. If a subclass' main 1st level feature was an expanded spell-list, I give it one other new feature.

This allows the Sorcerer to slightly larger versatility than it otherwise would.

 

[MoonSong]

The sample build I was commenting on was a 3.5e sorcerer "rogue" build that MS(KL) posted as an example of a build that was "effective" in 3.5e but couldn't be duplicated in 5e, which I was pointing out really wasn't a particularly effective build since in 3.5e the low caster stat did reduce the save DCs, number of spells slots, and max level that could be cast. I should have been more clear about that.

5e did reduce the impact of a low casting stat in some ways, but with all magical attacks now driving off of the casting stat and over-level scroll usage driving off of the casting stat, it has become more important in other ways.

Maybe it is because I don't play wizards, but you don't really need a high Cha to be a good sorcerer, yes DCs, but only a few spells have DC's, more so if you go for utility. I typically go for low stats on games, and eventually I realized that you needed a very low Cha to get bonus spells. Like ridiculously low. Really most of the time if you can cast spells of a given level, you get bonus slots for that level -and you still get the base slots if you can't learn spells of that level.

Also that 13 can easily turn into a 14 at 8th level, the only moment when it would matter. Of course it doesn't help if you get to 10th level, but not many games last that much anyway, and by then fancy cloaks of charisma and tomes are so easy to come by it isn't a problem.

 

[MoonSong]

Enchanter Sorc - specializes in mind control and misdirection:

Cantrip : Friends, Minor Illusion, Message
1st: Charm Person, Disguise Self, Silent Image, Sleep
2nd: Blindness/Deafness, Crown of Madness, Hold Person, Phantasmal Force, Suggestion
3rd: Fear, Hypnotic Pattern, Major Image, Slow
4th: Confusion, Dominate beast, Polymorph
5th: Dominate Person, Hold Monster, Seeming
6th: Mass Suggestion, (yup, 6th sucks for this theme)
7th: (7th blows for this theme)
8th: Dominate Monster, Power Word Stun
9th: Power Word Kill

Sneaky/Scouty/Information gathering Sorc:

Cantrip: Dancing Lights, Mge Hand, Message
1st: Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Jump, Mage Armor, Expeditious Retreat.
2nd: Alter Self, Darknvission, Detect Thoughts, Invisiblity, Knock, Levitate, Misty Step, See Invisibility, Spider Climb
3rd: Clairvoyance, Fly, Gaseous Form, Tongues, Water Breathing
4th: Dimension Door, Greater Invis, Polymorph,
5th: Telekinesis, Teleportation Circle
6th: mass Suggestion, True Seeing
7th: Etherealness, Plane Shift, Reverse Gravity, Teleport
8th: Dominate Monster
9th: Time Stop

Slot in a few straight up offensive spells at lower levels and you're pretty much good to go.

You know, a sorcerer doesn't have enough spells known to get those few offensive spells you mention or more than half of the thematic spells on the list. (But a wizard sure can learn all of them and more; look I'm not trying to assume people will act like jerks at the table, but this has happened before and it can sure happen again without a steady group were social pressure is a thing. A wizard can outright replace you at your niche and do stuff you can't.) And we are still missing many flavorful and useful spells (Unseen servant does wonders for thieving...)

 

[Marandahir]

And that's why I'd add Sorcerous Origin bonus spells known (but not prepared) at each of 1st through 5th.

 

[MoonSong]

And that's why I'd add Sorcerous Origin bonus spells known (but not prepared) at each of 1st through 5th.

Care to explain how? (Sorcerers don't prep spells)

 

[Minigiant]

Personally, I think adding more spell known to the sorcerer would make them overpowered. You could free up a lot of space if the player decides to go full offensive.

 

[Jester David]

You know, a sorcerer doesn't have enough spells known to get those few offensive spells you mention or more than half of the thematic spells on the list. (But a wizard sure can learn all of them and more; look I'm not trying to assume people will act like jerks at the table, but this has happened before and it can sure happen again without a steady group were social pressure is a thing. A wizard can outright replace you at your niche and do stuff you can't.) And we are still missing many flavorful and useful spells (Unseen servant does wonders for thieving...)

And?
It's a list of all possible options. Showing that not only can you build a sorcerer that does those things, but that you could build two and have limited overlap.
You pick one or two spells at each spell level, replacing lower level ones with offensive spells as needed. That's all you need to really pull off the build or character concept. The sorcerer has a lot of choices in how they want to build an enchanter or sneak.

 

[I'm A Banana]

You know, a sorcerer doesn't have enough spells known to get those few offensive spells you mention or more than half of the thematic spells on the list. (But a wizard sure can learn all of them and more; look I'm not trying to assume people will act like jerks at the table, but this has happened before and it can sure happen again without a steady group were social pressure is a thing. A wizard can outright replace you at your niche and do stuff you can't.) And we are still missing many flavorful and useful spells (Unseen servant does wonders for thieving...)

All this stuff about Unseen Servant, but do you even mage hand, bro? I ain't sayin' they're the same, but if you want to pick a pocket, open a door, activate a trap, or otherwise manipulate an object at a distance, that cantrip is exceedingly effective.

It's true that a wizard can do all that, but wizard could usually replace a sorcerer in 3e, too (though, kind of hilariously, it couldn't in 4e). In 5e, what utility wizards are jealous of is Twin Spell (no wizard can invisible two people at once), and to a lesser degree, Quicken Spell (useful for blowing through multiple prepped spells), Extend Spell (useful for longer transformations), and Subtle Spell (for when you've gotta be sneaky). They're also jealous of a wild mage's advantage mechanic (useful for the skill checks often required by utility spells).

Utility sorcerers might get jealous of rituals and spell-swapping.

Looks like a fair swap to me!

 

[Chaosmancer]

Just to add to I'MAB's (your bloody name is too long to type), post, I gotta ask, whut??

How is choosing SoD or SoSuck spells optimising? You asked to play a Sorc that wasn't a blaster. That's very, very easy - don't choose blasty spells. Let's have a little gander at the Sorc's spell list shall we? And create a few themed Sorc's that aren't blasters:

Enchanter Sorc - specializes in mind control and misdirection:

Cantrip : Friends, Minor Illusion, Message
1st: Charm Person, Disguise Self, Silent Image, Sleep
2nd: Blindness/Deafness, Crown of Madness, Hold Person, Phantasmal Force, Suggestion
3rd: Fear, Hypnotic Pattern, Major Image, Slow
4th: Confusion, Dominate beast, Polymorph
5th: Dominate Person, Hold Monster, Seeming
6th: Mass Suggestion, (yup, 6th sucks for this theme)
7th: (7th blows for this theme)
8th: Dominate Monster, Power Word Stun
9th: Power Word Kill

Works pretty darn well there. 7th level, you'd have to choose some breadth, forgoing mind control effects, although, you could simply not learn any 7th level spells and just caster your lower level spells as 7th level ones. Not a big deal. And, besides, we're talking a 13th level sorc by this point, so, I'm not too worried. Certainly lots of choice for anything in the low and mid ranges.

Sneaky/Scouty/Information gathering Sorc:

Cantrip: Dancing Lights, Mge Hand, Message
1st: Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Jump, Mage Armor, Expeditious Retreat.
2nd: Alter Self, Darknvission, Detect Thoughts, Invisiblity, Knock, Levitate, Misty Step, See Invisibility, Spider Climb
3rd: Clairvoyance, Fly, Gaseous Form, Tongues, Water Breathing
4th: Dimension Door, Greater Invis, Polymorph,
5th: Telekinesis, Teleportation Circle
6th: mass Suggestion, True Seeing
7th: Etherealness, Plane Shift, Reverse Gravity, Teleport
8th: Dominate Monster
9th: Time Stop

Slot in a few straight up offensive spells at lower levels and you're pretty much good to go.

Look, all you have to do is pick a theme and then choose spells based on that theme. There's about 10-20 spells per spell level. If you can't find what you're looking for out of that list, you're not trying very hard.

I'm currently playing a Storm Sorcerer, from the Unearthed Arcana not Sword Coast as it wasn't out when I built the character. Now, I'm having a good time, but my DM has also uber-powered all of our PCs. We are technically 7th level, but we'd probably spike around 9th or so with all the extra boosts he's given us. I mention all this to give a basis for my opinions.

First, the spell lists above are not right. Maybe I'm missing a section of text that explains this, but sorcerer's get 15 spells maximum. The enchanter is sporting 23 in that list and the sneak has 32. Now possibly these are only lists of potential spells, not meant to be builds, but the lack of options is the most frustrating part of playing a sorcerer.

If you do not replace any spells over your career and just gain spells of your level when you first can you end up with 3 1st level spells, 2 spells of 2nd thru 5th each and 1 spell of 6th thru 9th each. Until 10th level you have only 2 metamagic, and honestly I can't imagine not taking quicken and twin, those being the most obviously useful. In fact, I can't imagine taking silent as one of my 4 metamagics, because unless the campaign was explicitly intrigue based it isn't going matter very much if the angry orc can tell if you are casting sleep or not, but being able to cast sleep and then firebolt the one left standing (quicken) will be useful.

One thing that kind of aggravates me though is when people say that because of metamagic and sorcerery points a sorcerer can "use his spells better" and that this stacks against the sheer overwhelming versatility of the other casters. By level 20 a sorcerer still has only fifteen spells, while the cleric and druid, and likely the wizard if the DM allowed them to scribe new spells into their spellbooks, have access to essentially their entire spell list and get to prepare 25 of those spells (class plus ability mod, and by level 20 ability mod is likely maxed). That is a very large gap in power, since options equal power in a very real way.

In addition, you just do not get enough sorcerery points to do a lot with. The conversion chart makes converting them nearly a waste of time unless you are desperately in need of a slot. Then, just some quick conversions, Quicken spell is worth an additional 1st level spell. Heighten is worth a 2nd level spell... actually there is a good point. If you take Heighten as one of your first metamagics it is the only metamagic you can use for the day, and takes away all "Additional spell slots" you could get. Take heighten to be an awesome debuffer and you get 1 shot until 6th level, where you can do it twice. Sure you can still cast the spell normally, but it just seems like a lot of noise and fanfare for not a lot of actual "umph". People talking about twinning haste, that costs 3 points as well, a second level slot equivalent for doubling a 3rd seems good, but at 5th level you only have 2 pts left, at 6th level you can only do that twice, and that is if you use no other metamagics at all. At what point is it worth it to invest almost all your special abilities into one fight, maybe two? Especially since I hear time and again that very few games get past level 10, which is right about where sorcerery points and metamagic actually start to make an impact.

I'm not trying to whine and whinge that the sorcerer isn't the best, but there are quite a few points where they could use some serious improvements if all you have is the player's handbook. Because you get very few spells (which, again, you get the same spells known as the ranger, and only 2 more than eldritch knights and arcane tricksters which are labeled 1/3 casters) and very few options to make those spells "the best they can be".

You get to be good at 1 thing. Maybe decent at a second, but only good at 1 thing.

 

[Minigiant]

One thing that kind of aggravates me though is when people say that because of metamagic and sorcerery points a sorcerer can "use his spells better" and that this stacks against the sheer overwhelming versatility of the other casters. By level 20 a sorcerer still has only fifteen spells, while the cleric and druid, and likely the wizard if the DM allowed them to scribe new spells into their spellbooks, have access to essentially their entire spell list and get to prepare 25 of those spells (class plus ability mod, and by level 20 ability mod is likely maxed). That is a very large gap in power, since options equal power in a very real way.

In addition, you just do not get enough sorcerery points to do a lot with. The conversion chart makes converting them nearly a waste of time unless you are desperately in need of a slot. Then, just some quick conversions, Quicken spell is worth an additional 1st level spell. Heighten is worth a 2nd level spell... actually there is a good point. If you take Heighten as one of your first metamagics it is the only metamagic you can use for the day, and takes away all "Additional spell slots" you could get. Take heighten to be an awesome debuffer and you get 1 shot until 6th level, where you can do it twice. Sure you can still cast the spell normally, but it just seems like a lot of noise and fanfare for not a lot of actual "umph". People talking about twinning haste, that costs 3 points as well, a second level slot equivalent for doubling a 3rd seems good, but at 5th level you only have 2 pts left, at 6th level you can only do that twice, and that is if you use no other metamagics at all. At what point is it worth it to invest almost all your special abilities into one fight, maybe two? Especially since I hear time and again that very few games get past level 10, which is right about where sorcerery points and metamagic actually start to make an impact.

The part you and many are missing this that 1 metamagicked spell is often better than 2 normal spells.

A twinned chromatic orb deals 6d8 (2 orbs of 3d8) in one turn compared to 2 normal chromatic orbs in half the time (1 round vs 2 rounds) for half the slots of a 1st level spell.

Think about it. A level 5 sorcerer has 5 points and 4 1st level slots. A 5th level wizard has 4 1st level slots and gets 3 more form Arcane recovery. The sorcerer can twin 3 of his 1st level spells (effectively 6 1st level spells) and still have 2 points left over. They just get the 3 extra spells and take twice the time. You get similar results with heighten and quicken spells. Distant spell saves you HP with range. Extend is good for buffs. Subtle is for low combat campaigns. And none of that 5th level or level restriction restriction of Arcane Recovery.

Metamagic is way better than Bonus Spells per day as it is often cheaper and faster. That's why you can't give sorcerers many bonus spells as they get even more stronger than normal caster with every metamagickable spell they get.

If Sorcerers had Widen Spell, people would be calling them broken. Widen Spell was 3 slots higher in 3E. Imagine if a sorcerer could double the area of any area spell for 3 sorcery points. Widened 9th level spells?

Most people don't realize how close to absolutely broken the sorcerer is. How bad it would be if you gave it the certain spells or gave it too many extra metamagics or sorcery points.