D&D 5E Designer apathy and sunk costs, The reason the sorcerer is doomed to uncanny valley one-trick-ponieness.

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
Well, I normally don't play with powergamers. And if the wizard is suddenly crafting like crazy, you could use it to your advantage -you know, knowstones. I'm not asking for anything unbalanced, just to have access to the spells that are already there. I still can't see how can you use metamagic to break rope trick, familiar, unseen servants and floating disks...
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
At this time Divine and Primal casters get all their spells, just need to prepare what you need for the day. At this point wizards know 10 spells, two of which can be 2nd level. 10 spells known vs 4. Even larger gap if the wizard ever gets to stop by a library to scribe some spells into their book. At level 20, if a wizard has never scribed a single spell into their spellbook other than at level ups during their entire career, it is 44 spells know to 15, and the wizard can likely choose 25 of those to have ready for the day.
In 3.5, the Wizard and other Vancian casters would essentially 'know' vastly more spells than the Sorcerer, but, the number they could actually prepare in a day were much closer to the Sorcerer's spells known, and the need to prep spells repeatedly to cast them repeatedly further cut into that, and Sorcerers could cast more spells/day, spontaneously, so never 'wasted' slots, while a prepped Vancian caster might fill a slot with a spell it turned out he never needed. Even with all that, the Sorcerer was often regarded as inferior relegated to Tier 2.

So, out of all those options... Quicken is clearly the best to me. So a sorcerer picks quicken and twin as their metamagic. Heightened and Empowered might be my high level picks, if the game or character get that far, but none of the others really measure up. ... then can you honestly say the ability to cast twice as fast can equal up to knowing at the very least 3 times as may tricks? And being able to cast them without spending spell slots if they happen to be a ritual?
You're assuming an 'optimal' Sorcerer who puts both his metamagic choices towards casting faster (which burns through slots faster, in a game that assumes 6-8 combats per day in an attempt to get casters to conserve those resources at least a little). A Sorcerer with two very different metamagic choices has more options than one where both are focused on the same goal. Burning Sorcerery points for more spell slots (or vice versa) is also an option you're ignoring.

I'm not sure how much that helps, but it's a consideration.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Well, I normally don't play with powergamers. And if the wizard is suddenly crafting like crazy, you could use it to your advantage -you know, knowstones. I'm not asking for anything unbalanced, just to have access to the spells that are already there. I still can't see how can you use metamagic to break rope trick, familiar, unseen servants and floating disks...

By crafting I meant scrolls.
Almost every PC if seen make it to level 5 used that Scribe Scroll feat. With it they could cast situationial spells without using slots.

5th edition turned "the wizard with scrolls" to a "wizard with a ritual book".

Sorcerers' versatility was hosed the same back then as is right now.

However WOTC can't balance the game to nonpowergammers. We saw what happens when you do that. So sorcerer had to get a new strength and fall back to the traditional style of play.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
The sorcerer was straight up outclassed by the wizard in 3rd
Tier 2, sure. Even so, it wasn't a distant second or a matter of strict inferiority. The Wizard and Sorcerer could each do things the other outright couldn't - the wizard's stuff just came out ahead in the calculus of optimization.

5th edition was designed to not let you use noncombat, nonoffensive, utility spells until you get to the mid levels. Casters have to charm, curse, fog, slow, restrain, weaken, and blast foes and buff allies with all their spells until level 7 or so unless your party is good at killing. It's basically rituals or bust to do utility until high levels.
I think that's overstating it. You /can/ use spells for non-offensive purposes at low levels, it just becomes convenient to do so at higher levels, since you don't give up meaningful offense in the process. The same was true in 3.x, for similar reasons. In 5e, your spells scale damage and the like with slot level, but scale saves with character level, so only your higher level slots are really suitable for offense (mostly in the form of damage). In 3.5, your spells scaled damage &c with caster level, but scale saves with slot level, so only your higher level spell slots were really suitable for offense (mostly in the form of SoD). In both cases, your lower level spells remain useful for other purposes at higher level.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
In 3.5, the Wizard and other Vancian casters would essentially 'know' vastly more spells than the Sorcerer, but, the number they could actually prepare in a day were much closer to the Sorcerer's spells known, and the need to prep spells repeatedly to cast them repeatedly further cut into that, and Sorcerers could cast more spells/day, spontaneously, so never 'wasted' slots, while a prepped Vancian caster might fill a slot with a spell it turned out he never needed. Even with all that, the Sorcerer was often regarded as inferior relegated to Tier 2.

You're assuming an 'optimal' Sorcerer who puts both his metamagic choices towards casting faster (which burns through slots faster, in a game that assumes 6-8 combats per day in an attempt to get casters to conserve those resources at least a little). A Sorcerer with two very different metamagic choices has more options than one where both are focused on the same goal. Burning Sorcerery points for more spell slots (or vice versa) is also an option you're ignoring.

I'm not sure how much that helps, but it's a consideration.

I guess in part I should clarify a little. I'm more focused on low to mid levels than high levels at the moment. Most games don't get to level 15 or 17 but most do get to 11 or 12 so those are the more important levels in explaining how the sorcerer looks. Also, if you aren't feeling effective or good at low levels then you are more likely to switch characters or multi-class. I like sorcerers, but they suffer from a lack of actual options that many people seem to overlook.

Let's look at 3rd to 5th level. This is where a Sorcerer gets half their metamagic (2 options at level 3) and where they get their first big damage spell (typically fireball but my Storm Sorcerer of course took Lightning Bolt)

Twin and Quicken are both good options, for doing separate things that have similar goals. You could Twin Chromatic orbs, Quicken Fireballs and mop up with Fire bolts, ect.

If you want to build an enchanter, support or illusionist the metamagic is still useful, since it is all about timing and targets and that applies to a wide variety of spells.

Empower isn't very useful at 3rd level, you don't have enough damage dice flying around to give it a big impact, but you could get it at 3rd with the assumption of occasionally using it and then having it when you get your 3rd and 4th level spells later on. You could also wait until 10th level when you will definetly have those spells and save your meatmagic option for something more effective at level 3 and level 4.

This option is useless for any build that does not focus on damage, since empower only effects damage.

Heighten spell is very powerful, giving disadvantage to targets, but by costing 3 points at 3rd level this is your entire pool of points. To use heighten spell twice in one day (let's say using 2nd level spells) costs your entire sorcerery pool, 3 1st level spells to refill the pool and the two 2nd level spells you cast. You will not be using this much if you take it, the cost is simply so high that until level 9 it seems unreasonable.

This leaves Subtle, Distant, Careful and Extend.

Subtle is super situational, requiring either being tied up in a dungeon or a high stakes cloak and dagger campagin to be effective enough to even consider.

Distant is rarely useful, since most spells have an effective range (movement speed plus spell range excluding area of effect radius') of 120 ft or more. That is plenty to hit most targets most of the time. Now it does make touch spells range 30 ft which can be useful in combat, but sorcerers do not get many touch spells. In combat ones make distant useful, out of combat ones, less so. Srill I could see someone picking it for flavor, but that means giving up a different option.

Careful is either useful for dealing less damage to allies due to friendly fire or if you can find any spells that require a save that do not deal damage, making those safe for friendly fire. Not a lot of bang for your buck honestly, since most of the time you consider your allies saves or hp to be able to take the friendly fire hit before you cast it anyways.

Extend could be useful, but like distant it is highly subjective to circumstance, since most spell durations are already long enough to accomplish the goals of the casting, extending them is rarely worth the points.

Also, not ignoring being able to turn points into slots, but for the 3 points it takes to make a 2nd level slot you could quicken and twin, or twin and empower twice, or ect. The cost of creating slots is again so high as to make it a major investment of resources, resources that you also need to make your casting as effective as it is supposed to be. You cannot do both metamagic and slot creation on the same day until you start getting to level 10 or higher, at which point a lot of your style and decisons have already been made.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I guess in part I should clarify a little.
No need, it was clear enough the first time.

You're still assuming an 'optimal' Sorcerer who puts both his metamagic choices towards casting faster. A Sorcerer with two distinct metamagic choices would still have more options than one where both are focused on the same goal. Like burning Sorcerery points for more spell slots (or vice versa), it may not be theoretically optimal to do so, but it's still expands options, even if not to anything like the flexibility of the neo-Vancian casters.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
No need, it was clear enough the first time.

You're still assuming an 'optimal' Sorcerer who puts both his metamagic choices towards casting faster. A Sorcerer with two distinct metamagic choices would still have more options than one where both are focused on the same goal. Like burning Sorcerery points for more spell slots (or vice versa), it may not be theoretically optimal to do so, but it's still expands options, even if not to anything like the flexibility of the neo-Vancian casters.

I was trying to clarify I was looking at low to mid levels actually, as the high cost of metamagic is reduced at higher levels.

Part of what I'm talking about though is the lack of actual options a sorcerer has compared to what they are advertised to have. Sure, you could take twin and still spell and you technically have more options, but if you never once use still spell because it is too situational then do you in practice have more options to choose from. You could take empower and heighten, but at 3rd level you do not actually have a meanignful choice in regards to heighten, because the cost is your entire pool of points. You will be unable to create new slots, unable to use your other metamagic, unless you burn slots to create points to power spells.

Ran out of time to post, I may elaborate more later.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Part of what I'm talking about though is the lack of actual options a sorcerer has compared to what they are advertised to have. Sure, you could take twin and still spell and you technically have more options, but if you never once use still spell ... do you in practice have more options to choose from.
Yes. The same is true if you use still spell a lot and never once cast twin spell.

You could take empower and heighten
You'd still be doubling down. You're just doubling up on casting 'harder' instead of casting faster.

Ran out of time to post, I may elaborate more later.
Really, I get where you coming from - I'd even agree if the metamagic choices were even more poorly balanced than they are, or even a little worse than you paint them.

I just don't believe it's the only legit PoV in this context.

...

Another consideration is the very different role of the Empowered DM in 5e. In 3.5 you could write off something as sub-optimal and too-situational (especially as a sorcerer, as a Wiz you could always dash off a scroll and stuff it in your handy haversack). In 5e the DM is empowered to make those interesting situations come up just enough to make the option worthwhile, but not overpowering, or rule the option useable in other situations he is using to keep it meaningful.

You can't just do a meta-game analysis and write something off, because Rulings aren't a known quantity the way RAW was in the past.
 
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