frankthedm
First Post
DragonTurtle said:
MANY people tend to forget about such things.
Diplomacy, the replacement for roleplaying.
- Thread starter IcyCool
- Start date
MANY people tend to forget about such things.
Rystil Arden
First Post
Heehee, won't do a smidgeon of good against my loony +35 Diplomacy level 3 girlDragonTurtle said:
helium3
First Post
Crothian said:
I had a player once that min/maxed diplomacy. The problem was compounded by the fact that the player in question could not role-play and hardly had a personality of his own. He would say "I use diplomacy" and roll a d20. I got to the point where I required that he had to tell me what his character was saying before he was allowed to roll the dice. He didn't even have to say anything useful, he just had to say SOMETHING.
I think the diplomacy skill should be banned.
Rystil Arden said:+4 Charisma, +2 racial half-elf, +6 Typeless Beguiling Influence, +3 Typeless Friendly Psicrystal, +3 Typeless Mink Familiar, +3 Typeless Skill Focus, +2 Typeless Negotiator, +6 from ranks +6 synergy from the 3 synergy skills = +35
Enjoy
Ouch!
Especially considering, at no point did you include a circlet of persuasion for another +3 competance bonus! (A lady needs her jewelery, you know...)
Cheers,
Vurt
Rystil Arden
First Post
At level 3, she can't afford itVurt said:
Jack Simth
First Post
Even restricting yourself to core only, it can still get pretty scary:Rystil Arden said:Heehee, I agree. Now watch a series of fairly reasonable bonuses turn into a nightmare!
Half-elf, rolls 18 Charisma and 14 Intelligence. That's +6 to Diplomacy from race and stats. Starts off as Psion: Telepath with 4 ranks each in Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, and Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) taking a Friendly Psicrystal (+3 typeless to Diplomacy). Takes a level in Warlock, selecting the Beguiling Influence invocation (+6 typeless bonus to Diplomacy, Bluff, and Intimidate) as her only invocation and ramping up Bluff and Sense Motive with 1 ranks each and Diplomacy by 1 (paying 2 points for the Diplomacy crossclass). Next level she goes Wizard: Enchanter, taking 1 rank in Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), the final rank in Diplomacy (paying 2 points again), and selecting a Mink Familiar (+3 typeless to Diplomacy, and I made this one up). And feats? Skill Focus and Negotiator of course!
Now she has:
+4 Charisma, +2 racial half-elf, +6 Typeless Beguiling Influence, +3 Typeless Friendly Psicrystal, +3 Typeless Mink Familiar, +3 Typeless Skill Focus, +2 Typeless Negotiator, +6 from ranks +6 synergy from the 3 synergy skills = +35
Enjoy
Half-Elf Bard 3, 18 Cha, Int 12
+4 Cha
+2 Racial Half Elf
+3 Typless Skill Focus
+2 Typless negotiator
+2 Synergy (Bluff, 5 ranks)
+2 Synergy (Sense Motive, 5 ranks)
+2 Synergy (Knoweledge(Nobility and Royalty), 5 ranks)
+6 Diplomacy Ranks
For +23 at 3rd.
Of course, that is eating two feats (your only two feats at third), and 21 skill points (all of them, for an Int-12 Bard) and basically gets you Charm Person at will as a full-round action that has a roughly .... -10 for rushed as a full-round action ... +13, Diplomacy DC 20.... 65% chance of turning anyone you can talk with from "Hostile" to "Unfriendly".
If you can squeeze out Int 14, that same Half-Elf Bard can have eight languages at level 1 (Two Automatic - Common and Elven; two bonus, four burning ranks for the class skill "Speak Language") and one more for each additional level up to 3rd - so 10 different languages. There are, what, 20 languages listed in the SRD? Careful selection means that Cha 18, Int 14 Bard 3 can talk to roughly 95% of the intelligent critters in the MM. By 5th, the Int-14 Bard could have all languages in the SRD the bard is qualified for (e.g., not Druidic). And then, with 8 skill points a level, the bard can back fill some of the other more useful skills at later levels. Meanwhile, this bard still has full spellcasting for Charm Person or something.
Storyteller01
First Post
Maybe we can look at the charm person spell:
From the SRD:
This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target’s attitude as friendly). If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw.
The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell. You must speak the person’s language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming.
Emphasis mine
It looks (to me anyway) that the spell does the same thing the high ranking Diplomacy skill does, only faster. Can't you do the same thing (Diplomacy to get a friendly attitude, other checks to actually get something done)?
Then there's the classic "Hey, your a pretty great guy! Thing is, if I don't kill you my boss will kill me. Got the [pick some grissly method for a long distance self destruct spell trigger] to prove it". One wasted diplomacy check, unless you didn't know someone else was in charge...
From the SRD:
This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target’s attitude as friendly). If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw.
The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell. You must speak the person’s language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming.
Emphasis mine
It looks (to me anyway) that the spell does the same thing the high ranking Diplomacy skill does, only faster. Can't you do the same thing (Diplomacy to get a friendly attitude, other checks to actually get something done)?
Then there's the classic "Hey, your a pretty great guy! Thing is, if I don't kill you my boss will kill me. Got the [pick some grissly method for a long distance self destruct spell trigger] to prove it". One wasted diplomacy check, unless you didn't know someone else was in charge...
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Mistwell
Crusty Old Meatwad
This is much easier to do in Arcana Unearthed/Evolved. All you need is a 6th level Akashic for a 50 on your check, with no magic items.
Charisma 14, for +2 to Charisma skill checks. 9 ranks in Diplomacy. 5 ranks in Bluff, for a +2 synergy bonus to Diplomacy checks. 5 Ranks in Sense Motive, for a +2 synergy bonus to Diplomacy check. Feats: Born Leader (+4 Diplomacy checks, breaks diplomacy ties in your favor), Skill focus: Diplomacy (+3 Diplomacy), Skill Application: Diplomacy and Bluff (+2 Diplomacy), Tattoo Spell: Heightened Canny Effort (+10 to next skill check), Skill Mastery: Diplomacy + several other skills (allows you to take 10 when otherwise could not). Akashic Abilities used: Skill memory (+2 to skill check), and Skill Focus (the Akashic ability, and not the feat): Diplomacy ability (+4 to skill check).
So, you trigger your Skill Memory, seeking words of advice from the most charismatic people of the ages. You tap your tattoo. You take 10 on a Diplomacy check, using Skill Mastery. And there you go...you have a 50 for your Diplomacy check, which changes a hostile opponent to helpful. You can do this even in combat, since your feat allows you to take 10 even when threatened or distracted. -10 for doing it as a full round action, and you have a 40, still enough to end the encounter while making the former opponant a friend.
Charisma 14, for +2 to Charisma skill checks. 9 ranks in Diplomacy. 5 ranks in Bluff, for a +2 synergy bonus to Diplomacy checks. 5 Ranks in Sense Motive, for a +2 synergy bonus to Diplomacy check. Feats: Born Leader (+4 Diplomacy checks, breaks diplomacy ties in your favor), Skill focus: Diplomacy (+3 Diplomacy), Skill Application: Diplomacy and Bluff (+2 Diplomacy), Tattoo Spell: Heightened Canny Effort (+10 to next skill check), Skill Mastery: Diplomacy + several other skills (allows you to take 10 when otherwise could not). Akashic Abilities used: Skill memory (+2 to skill check), and Skill Focus (the Akashic ability, and not the feat): Diplomacy ability (+4 to skill check).
So, you trigger your Skill Memory, seeking words of advice from the most charismatic people of the ages. You tap your tattoo. You take 10 on a Diplomacy check, using Skill Mastery. And there you go...you have a 50 for your Diplomacy check, which changes a hostile opponent to helpful. You can do this even in combat, since your feat allows you to take 10 even when threatened or distracted. -10 for doing it as a full round action, and you have a 40, still enough to end the encounter while making the former opponant a friend.
Storyteller01
First Post
There's always the, "hey, your a great guy! Thing is, If I don't kill you my boss will (shows some tattoo with a nasty area effect and a long distance trigger). It was fun though."
Then there's the samurai route. "Yes, you are an amazing individual. However, honor dictates that you must die".
Diplomacy makes them friendly; it doesn't (usually) negate previous obligations or beliefs.
Then there's the samurai route. "Yes, you are an amazing individual. However, honor dictates that you must die".
Diplomacy makes them friendly; it doesn't (usually) negate previous obligations or beliefs.
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SweeneyTodd
First Post
I think if this character used his unearthly powers of persuasion (and come on, 24 Charisma plus magic items equals supernatural to me), his reputation would spread very quickly.
Whatever precautions people use against Sirens and the like would apply -- you'd have enemies who, warned of this man with the golden tongue, would stopper their ears and attack without giving him a chance to open his mouth.
I'd still tone things down as discussed earlier in the thread, but in my opinion the issue isn't "He's incredibly persuasive" but rather "He has superpowers". Any precautions people take against mind-affecting spells would be used against this PC.
Whatever precautions people use against Sirens and the like would apply -- you'd have enemies who, warned of this man with the golden tongue, would stopper their ears and attack without giving him a chance to open his mouth.
I'd still tone things down as discussed earlier in the thread, but in my opinion the issue isn't "He's incredibly persuasive" but rather "He has superpowers". Any precautions people take against mind-affecting spells would be used against this PC.
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