D&D 5E Disarm RAW OP?

[billd91]

5e really twisted its combat jargon in knots trying to pretend it only had one kind of action without losing the robustness of 4e’s action economy.

From my perspective, they simplified it.

 

[Charlaquin]

From my perspective, they simplified it.

The way they handle movement is definitely simpler, and one of the subtly brilliant moves 5e made, in my opinion. But the action/bonus action/object interaction breakdown is effectively the same as the standard action/minor action/free action system with more confusing names.

 

[toucanbuzz]

Same character can then use a free object interaction to pick the opponents weapon up off the ground (assuming he did not use this free action before the disarm)....

This isn't a hard and fast rule.

The real question is whether you can freely interact with items in the "controlled space" of another. It's without debate that you can freely interact with objects not in control of anyone or yourself; they're on the list of examples.

In the PHB (p191), a creature's space is defined as the effective area they control during combat. Since the weapon drops at their feet, it's still in their controlled space. This keeps enemies from simply declaring they're grabbing a potion or wand off your belt. So, can you "freely" interact with objects that are in the effective controlled space of another?

First, read the list of examples for free object interactions. Read as a whole, they're all things either you already control or that you can control with ease.

Second, compare this to other similar actions that have a specific rule. When we're trying to lift someone's coin purse with our Sleight of Hand, it's not a "free" interact with objects even though a coin purse might be similar to lifting a bauble off a table. Someone else has contested control of what we're trying to interact with, so it takes an Action in the form of a contested check.

So, let's simply apply this to examples from the "free" interact list.

Lever on the Wall: sure, normally free. If it's stuck, might have to Use Object action or a skill check. Now, if a guard is standing in front of the lever and his space controls the area, would it make sense to let anyone "freely" ignore him and pull the lever as he swings his sword and pushes his body in the way? Rhetorical, of course not.

Axe on the Floor: sure, normally free, when it's my axe in my space or unattended. Apply same rationale as above. I'm attempting to interact with an object in the controlled space of another, no different than using sleight of hand.

So, can I pickup my enemy's weapon? Absolutely! It's in the RAW already. A skilled Fighter with Extra Attack could (1) substitute Disarm for an attack, then (2) substitute a Shove for an attack or perhaps, the DM allows it, use Overrun as a bonus action to push through the enemy's space. Then, when control space over the dropped weapon has been disrupted, the Fighter could "freely" interact with the weapon, kicking it if he has no free hands or picking it up if he does, or even dragging it with his foot and standing on it.

 

[ChaosOS]

This isn't a hard and fast rule.

The real question is whether you can freely interact with items in the "controlled space" of another. It's without debate that you can freely interact with objects not in control of anyone or yourself; they're on the list of examples.

In the PHB (p191), a creature's space is defined as the effective area they control during combat. Since the weapon drops at their feet, it's still in their controlled space. This keeps enemies from simply declaring they're grabbing a potion or wand off your belt. So, can you "freely" interact with objects that are in the effective controlled space of another?

First, read the list of examples for free object interactions. Read as a whole, they're all things either you already control or that you can control with ease.

Second, compare this to other similar actions that have a specific rule. When we're trying to lift someone's coin purse with our Sleight of Hand, it's not a "free" interact with objects even though a coin purse might be similar to lifting a bauble off a table. Someone else has contested control of what we're trying to interact with, so it takes an Action in the form of a contested check.

So, let's simply apply this to examples from the "free" interact list.

Lever on the Wall: sure, normally free. If it's stuck, might have to Use Object action or a skill check. Now, if a guard is standing in front of the lever and his space controls the area, would it make sense to let anyone "freely" ignore him and pull the lever as he swings his sword and pushes his body in the way? Rhetorical, of course not.

Axe on the Floor: sure, normally free, when it's my axe in my space or unattended. Apply same rationale as above. I'm attempting to interact with an object in the controlled space of another, no different than using sleight of hand.

So, can I pickup my enemy's weapon? Absolutely! It's in the RAW already. A skilled Fighter with Extra Attack could (1) substitute Disarm for an attack, then (2) substitute a Shove for an attack or perhaps, the DM allows it, use Overrun as a bonus action to push through the enemy's space. Then, when control space over the dropped weapon has been disrupted, the Fighter could "freely" interact with the weapon, kicking it if he has no free hands or picking it up if he does, or even dragging it with his foot and standing on it.

These are some good clean rulings. One thing I'd like to add/emphasize in this discussion is like many things the Battlemaster can already access this by RAW with disarming strike. They get to do weapon damage in addition to the superiority die so you're not devaluing what the Battlemaster does, but it does mean you it's important to know how disarms work. Frustratingly it's something Jeremy Crawford has never clarified.

 

[iserith]

These are some good clean rulings. One thing I'd like to add/emphasize in this discussion is like many things the Battlemaster can already access this by RAW with disarming strike. They get to do weapon damage in addition to the superiority die so you're not devaluing what the Battlemaster does, but it does mean you it's important to know how disarms work. Frustratingly it's something Jeremy Crawford has never clarified.

He has said that the DMG disarm is an action though.

 

[NotAYakk]

The way they handle movement is definitely simpler, and one of the subtly brilliant moves 5e made, in my opinion. But the action/bonus action/object interaction breakdown is effectively the same as the standard action/minor action/free action system with more confusing names.

There is limited ability to substitute.

A bonus action can do an object interaction. Can an action do an object interaction? I'm uncertain, but I am pretty sure most DMs would allow it without blinking.

You cannot cast a bonus action spell, or use a bonus action ability, as an action.

Both action and bonus action are things that take most of your 6 second round, you can just do them in parallel.

---

I almost wish that all bonus actions had triggers, but spells break that.

I suspect at one point during design bonus actions where tied to triggers; you do action X, you can get a bonus Y.

Then we get rogue/monk/barbarian/spells that are bonus actions that are not "bonuses" to an action, just things you can do as well.

Making them use a common resource without a trigger simplifies multiclassing.

If you killed multiclassing...

Monk "bonus" stuff would be "once on your turn".
Same for Rogue stuff.
Spells could trigger off making a weapon attack or casting a cantrip.
Quicken Spell could trigger off casting a cantrip.
Rage wouldn't have an action type.
Bard inspiration would be 1/turn.
TWF ... maybe wouldn't have an action type.

The last give us the rules "you cannot cast a spell as a bonus action if you cast a spell as an action" with different wording.

(Now, action dodge, quicken spell is no longer legal, but I'd consider that a corner case)

This wouldn't be a very different game.

OTOH, the bonus system restricts how much kitchen sink you can do (I will arrange for 20 triggered extra actions on my turn!), which I think was mentioned in design talk of 5e.

 

[DND_Reborn]

There is limited ability to substitute.

A bonus action can do an object interaction. Can an action do an object interaction? I'm uncertain, but I am pretty sure most DMs would allow it without blinking.

{snip}

Yes and they should certainly allow it, it is one of the default actions after all.

or even as the second object.

I actually don't see where you can use your bonus action for an object interaction... So, where is that???

 

[NotAYakk]

Ah yes, that was just a common houserule. My bad.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Ah yes, that was just a common houserule. My bad.

NP. I just wanted to make certain it wasn't hidden someplace and I missed it! FWIW, I think it is a perfectly good house-rule myself. Actually, I think being able to replace any bonus action with your action should be allowed as well, but maybe that is just me.

 

[toucanbuzz]

He has said that the DMG disarm is an action though.

To add more confusion to the conversation, just found this April 26, 2016 Sage Advice tweet from Crawford that never made the errata Sage Advice: If you disarm on your turn, you can pickup the weapon.

However, I'll stick to my earlier post that I believe his reply would violate "controlled space" of another, we have existing rules that can deal with getting stuff from controlled spaces, and there's no specific rule in Disarm to the contrary.