Discussion - LEW 4th Edition

[Wik]

Y'know, you can base a whole campaign off city-states (I mean, my favourite game, Dark Sun, did just that). And, as you say, a pseudo-greek game could be perfect.

(though, to be fair, I would think warforged as a PC race could still work in a Greek game, and would be kind of cool).

We have a few great starting locations:

Sparta - Warrior State. If we have one, how many "300" adventures we'll have, I don't know.

Athens - Starting city. Democratic, leader state. Probably has a number of philosopher mages.

Corinth - Wealthy city. Add a thieves' guild.

Delphi - Clerical city of Oracles.

And so on. Change the names, but just enough so that they're recognizable, but still different. (Sparta becomes Partha, Athens becomes Athensa, Corint is Corithia, and Delphi is Delphia).

God, if we really wanted to make things cool, in that PDF idea I was mentioning, we could give Greekish/Roman names for PHB Gear ("You could call it a short sword, but Gladius is so much cooler").

Another great point is the number of adventures that a Greek setting spawns. WE already have a bunch of Greek magical items, and in the first year, I imagine there will be quests for the Golden Fleece, fights against Chimerae, and at least one group of sailors trying to find their way home on an ocean voyage...

and if my "world judge" idea passed, we could even put together events (such as the Trojan war) with many different GMs running adventures related to that event (With PCs on both sides), and the judges eventually deciding how the event resolves itself.

 

[Creamsteak]

I do like the idea of the greek city-states concept. That's still pretty reasonable to jump into for new players.

 

[orsal]

I dunno, we had a PC Mayor of Orussus for a little while.

I think being appointed mayor by a DM crafting a future scenario isn't quite the same thing. Rinaldo didn't even end up mayor as a result of any ambitions of his own in that direction.

One of the objectives I had when I suggested the form of government for Orussus was to make it possible for PCs to get actively involved in the political life of the city. The republican character means that there are no birth qualifications; the construction of the council means that characters can tie political activities into whatever local institutions they want to develop. So far, we haven't seen any PCs showing any interest in Council activities. But that could change.

 

[Boddynock]

See, now, I really not interested in 4E. I've decided I'm happy to be a grognard ... but if L4W is set up as a Greek style campaign, I might just have to get involved.

 

[Wik]

Yeah, I really like the Greek idea, as well. It really fits in everything we could want in a PbP setting.

I was thinking last night about how you could incorporate the races that we know of in 4E. Here's what I was thinking:

HUMANS
Predominant race. City builders, the "Keepers of the Fourth Age". A race that is growing, and already splintering off into numerous subgroups. While I know we know very little about 4e rules, I thought it'd be cool if we dropped "Common" as a language and had different human groups (and one that was dominant, so that there was still a "common" ish tongue.

ELVES
Tolkienesque, in that they once were dominant, but are no losing land and influence and beginning a slow decline. I think they should have their own island, but an island that is in reality their own plane, so that it winks in and out of the material plane. And there should be elven ruins everywhere.

DWARVES
Typical D&D mountain folk, I think. People love dwarves; to mess with them too much is silly. Maybe we could make them traders, though - running land-based caravans that connect the various "points of light".

HALFLINGS
I was thinking they should be sort of like gypsies - wandering nomads that entertain, dance, and do a little bit of thieving as well. They could peddle in information, and sell assorted goods.

TIEFLINGS
Humans who have been cursed for fighting on the side of the Titans. I thought it'd be cool if the war between the gods and titans came later, when humans and whatnot were alive, and those who fought on the side of the Titans became Gnolls, Orcs, Goblins, and Tieflings.

ELADRIN
Fey creatures that are connected to the primal forces of the land. I think a recent Dungeoncraft suggested that they be tied to various forms of land, so that there would be forest eladrin, river eladrin, etc. I think Eladrin tie in perfectly with a greek world - Circe could easily have been an Eladrin.

Anyways, just my thoughts. I'm pretty excited about the possibility of a Greek-themed world. And I love the idea of calling it "The Fourth Age".

 

[Boddynock]

Instead of "The Fourth Age", why not one of the Greek mythological ages. They were (Hesiod):

• The Golden Age
• The Silver Age
• The Bronze Age
• The Heroic Age
• The Iron Age

Given that the fourth age was the Age of Heroes, we might want to skip it and go on to the Iron Age - which is a time of turmoil and strife, in keeping with the points of light approach - or perhaps even see it as something the heroes (the PCs) strive to initiate.

The Age of Heroes is associated with those who fought at Thebes and Troy, and I get the idea that we're tending towards a later (classical?) Greek period.

 

[Wik]

Really, I have no problem with a more mythical campaign, where PCs can search for the Golden Fleece, undertake the Quests of Heracles, and battle the Medusae. I think there's even room for campaigns based around the Battle for Troy, and whatnot. Imagine a series of adventures based on the Iliad!

I think, though, that there has to be some "non-Greeking" it, too, so that it isn't just a rehash of Greek Elements into a pseudo-D&D world.

As an example (and I realize many of these aren't gonna be OGL):

1) Mind Flayer cults, manipulating the masses of people, in a dark horror sort of feel.
2) Gnoll Pirates, sailing from village to village, killing all they find.
3) A dark artifact built by crazy gnomes.

Really, stuff like that, so the game isn't just "Greek". What I think would be cool would be to put a bunch of Greek Elements in the game (namely, the gods and cities), and leave it at that - and when astute players notice the Greek references, they play on it. But other players who don't notice that it's a Greek World can play it as D&D - there's nothing stopping you from playing a Half-Orc fighter with a Greataxe.

 

[Wik]

P.S. I realy like the idea of "The Heroic Age", simply because it's a lot like Dark Sun - "Age of Heroes". But there's so much that could happen in this game, that I'm getting really excited about L4W. I'm a lot like you, 'Nock - wasn't really looking forward to 4e. But now, I kind of am.

I like the idea of "World Judges", because, while RA and Bront argue that the world HAS been dynamic, I think if there was a group of judges set on maintaining (and updating!) the game world, we could *really* make a "Living" Campaign. And there's so many possibilities in a Greek Model of campaign to have multi-group adventures - I think if Sparta and Athens went to war, and PCs could fight on either side, and have the finale of those adventures resolve how the campaign develops... that would be AMAZING. And world judges would be able to organize things like that.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Yeah, I really like the Greek idea, as well. It really fits in everything we could want in a PbP setting.

I was thinking last night about how you could incorporate the races that we know of in 4E. Here's what I was thinking:

HUMANS
Predominant race. City builders, the "Keepers of the Fourth Age". A race that is growing, and already splintering off into numerous subgroups. While I know we know very little about 4e rules, I thought it'd be cool if we dropped "Common" as a language and had different human groups (and one that was dominant, so that there was still a "common" ish tongue.

ELVES
Tolkienesque, in that they once were dominant, but are no losing land and influence and beginning a slow decline. I think they should have their own island, but an island that is in reality their own plane, so that it winks in and out of the material plane. And there should be elven ruins everywhere.

DWARVES
Typical D&D mountain folk, I think. People love dwarves; to mess with them too much is silly. Maybe we could make them traders, though - running land-based caravans that connect the various "points of light".

HALFLINGS
I was thinking they should be sort of like gypsies - wandering nomads that entertain, dance, and do a little bit of thieving as well. They could peddle in information, and sell assorted goods.

TIEFLINGS
Humans who have been cursed for fighting on the side of the Titans. I thought it'd be cool if the war between the gods and titans came later, when humans and whatnot were alive, and those who fought on the side of the Titans became Gnolls, Orcs, Goblins, and Tieflings.

ELADRIN
Fey creatures that are connected to the primal forces of the land. I think a recent Dungeoncraft suggested that they be tied to various forms of land, so that there would be forest eladrin, river eladrin, etc. I think Eladrin tie in perfectly with a greek world - Circe could easily have been an Eladrin.

Anyways, just my thoughts. I'm pretty excited about the possibility of a Greek-themed world. And I love the idea of calling it "The Fourth Age".

Several of these ideas I don't like without some changes--

The Eladrin is doable, but you'd want to rename them 'Nymphs'. Also, Circe is half Nymph half god and thus generally called by a term for 'goddess' by Homer. I still don't like it though--make Nymphs Nymphs. Let Eladrin be the children of Nymphs and humans (there are a LOT of these, and they are full mortals sometimes with semi-mystic abilities, so it fits beautifully). This way, they can also keep the name Eladrin.

I think Tieflings would be cooler if they were actually Titan or Protogonos-blooded (keeping with the pushing the Titanomachia later), descended from the dark children of Nyx.

Half-orcs could be Giant-blooded, like the Gigantes.

Elves, Tolkienesque seems bad for the new 4E woodsy elves. I'd attach them more with woodsy fey (like satyrs) and the followers of Silenus.

Dwarves--standard is too Norse. We can makes slight changes for better fit. Dwarves can be sprung from descendants of Hephaestos (perfect fit! he's an ugly, somewhat surly awesome forge guy).

 

[Wik]

Tieflings as half-spawn of Titans could definatley work. Especially because, once we're comfortable adding rules content, we can create "Feats" (or an equivalent in the 4e rules) that would allow for different Tiefling "Bloodlines".

I'm still a little lost on the Elf/Eladrin difference in 4e. I kind of thought elves were more like High Elves, and Eladrin more like Wood Elves? I guess I'm confused on that one.

One thing I think should be brought up - making it too Greek is probably a mistake. But, I generally like where we're going with this - Dwarves as the ancestors of Hephaestos is a pretty neat idea - plus, it's pretty standard D&D anyways (ie, we're not changing too much, beyond flavour).

I was thinking that, if warforged and shifters are available races (and everything points towards shifters being a "yes", at least), we'd need to find ways to let them in.

Warforged, to me, could be created by a magic-rich city-state (in my mind, Corinth) as a defence mechanism against the Spartans (who view the Warforged as abominations). I think animated suits of armour, in a very greek way fashion, would be pretty cool - not at all like the Eberron 'forged.

As for Shifters, I'm not entirely sure how to do them - maybe cursed humans, their curse resulting from one of Zeus' legendary piques of rage?