[DM needs help] How the party figures out what spell is in a wand? (and other items)

[WonkaMania]

Hey there all,

I'm a relatively new DM, and there arose a situation the last time we played. Well, the first thing was that I was just telling players what the schools of magic where when they cast Detect Magic, I was oblivious to the fact that they needed to roll a spellcraft check. (I haven't played magic users much)

So the party finds some magical gear. There's magical armor, a magic pearl, a magical bag, and a magical stick (wand). They figure out the Heward's Handy Haversack (I break off a tree-limb that's obviously bigger then the bag and try to put it in it. Cool it works.) The magical armor is of the Abjuration school (armor and protection items come up as abjuration). The Pearl doesn't come up as anything (it's a Pearl of Power, there's nothing in the 3.0 dmg that says which school it is or have a spell attached to it to look at).

Now the Wand. The wand was used by an npc spellcaster. Here's the kicker, the npc was an Adept, so he was casting both cure spells and sleep and burning hands, and, he was wearing armor. (I gave him the appropriate armor feats, as adepts cast divine spells so there is no arcane spell failure from casting in armor.) It's great because the pc's have no clue as to what he was. They think he was some sorceror/cleric multi-class. The wand is a Protection from Good wand. Detect Magic shows this as Abjuration (the spell is of the abjuration school). They really have *no* idea as to what it is.

Now, one of my pc's, the sorceror says "Ok, well I attempt to use the wand, and if I can't use it that means it's probably a divine wand and the cleric will attempt to use it." That's where the problem is. Uhm.. so you find a magic stick and you "attempt to use it"...???? Sorry bud, that's what the Use Magic Device skill is for, and it'd be "activating blindly". Needless to say, he nor the cleric have the skill.

He's arguing that since he's an arcane spell caster he should know if he can or can't use it. (in all reality, the wand is a divine wand because it was made by another adept, and since adepts cast divine spells, it's divine.) I'M saying how in the HELL is he going to "use" the wand or "know" weather he can use it or not without casting an identify spell? Detect Magic only gives you the school, IF you make your spellcraft check.

So, am I correct in saying that the party really will have no way in determining what the wand is? (if it's divine or arcane?) I should also note, they didn't really see what happened when the npc used the wand. He pulled it out and used it to touch another npc (he used the wand to cast Prot. from Good on his ally). Also to note, their is only one Rogue in the party, and she does *not* have the Use Magic Device skill.


Ok, as an aside, please let me know if I have the following ways to identify things correct:

scrolls - read magic tells you exactly what the scroll is, but otherwise you DON'T know. (even if the scroll is written in a language you understand?)

Potions- identify is the only way. The DM may allow you to "sample" it and see if it tastes like other potions you've had before and go from there, but as I understand that, that is only an optional rule..?

As for magic weapons and armor, I've just told them "you eventually figure out it's a +1 sword/armor/shield" because I don't want to keep track of the book keeping about it.

Various protection items such as rings of protection, bracers of armor, amulets of natural protection- I've just ended up telling the party "you eventually figure out it grants you a +1 bonus to your AC, although without casting Identify, you don't know what KIND of bonus it is" (and by that I mean natural ac, deflection, armor, etc.. although, I'm sure they'll figure it out)

Other items, unless it's obvious, I won't tell them. Such as the Pearl of Power. I had read somewhere that a Pearl of Power will "tingle" as a spell that can be recalled from it is cast, but other then that there is no way of knowing. Here's another question, if they "figure out" it is a Pearl of Power, can they still use it without casting an Identify to figure out the command word or whatever?

Ok, alot of questions, but the main one I'm really concerned about finding out about is the wand one. Please help if you can! (also, if what you do is a "house rule" and not an official one, please SAY so. )

~Wonka

 

[Creamsteak]

Wait, why exactly are they so resistant to just casting Identify? Yes, it costs 100 gold worth of material components each and every time you wish to cast it, but it's a damn necessity. You really are being kind as it stands with telling them their bonuses...

Without identify, you "could" let them figure out how to cast the spell out of kindness, but they still would have no idea when it's out of shots till they waste a round "firing" an empty stick.

 

[Nightfall]

Agreed Cream but some people are tight wads. I think there was a way Monte Cook devised. My advice use a detect magic spell and roll a knowledge Arcana check to determine it. Simple and a little more efficient. Even though they could just PAY someone to cast the damn spell.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Firstly, wands don't have an arcane or divine affiliation. Even though it was made by a divine caster, the sorcerer can use the Wand of Protection from Good.

Secondly, wands are spell trigger items. They don't use an obscure command word; if it's a Wand of Magic Missile, and you're a wizard, you can activate it just like you'd activate any other Wand of Magic Missile.

Now, it says "the user must still determine what spell is in the item before he can activate it".

So, if I hand you a wand, and say "It's Magic Missile", and you're a Wizard, you know how to activate it.

But - what if I'm only guessing? I don't know for a fact that it's a Wand of Magic Missile. But as far as you are aware, I've told you what it is. So you attempt to activate it just like you'd activate any other Wand of Magic Missile... and if I'm right, it works.

So is this any different to if I don't tell you anything, and you guess Magic Missile yourself? If you perform exactly the same trigger action, then in theory, the wand should activate if you guessed right.

Following this logic, you should be able to just run through your entire spell list until the wand activates. It costs you a charge, and if it's a 3rd level spell, that's more expensive than an Identify... but in theory it should work.

The house rule that I introduced was that attempting to activate a spell trigger item costs a charge... even if you attempt to activate the wrong spell.

Makes Identify far more attractive

-Hyp.

 

[EPRock]

So, if I hand you a wand, and say "It's Magic Missile", and you're a Wizard, you know how to activate it.

But - what if I'm only guessing? I don't know for a fact that it's a Wand of Magic Missile. But as far as you are aware, I've told you what it is. So you attempt to activate it just like you'd activate any other Wand of Magic Missile... and if I'm right, it works.

So is this any different to if I don't tell you anything, and you guess Magic Missile yourself? If you perform exactly the same trigger action, then in theory, the wand should activate if you guessed right.

Not all wands activate the same, the activation word could be different for each wand of magic missile.

Identify (wands) will tell you the spell in the wand, the number of charges, and the activation word.

 

[Li Shenron]

Given that the cheapest wand costs 375, and supposing on the average it may have only 50% of the charges when found, Identify costs you still less than how much the wand is worth, so I would say that it's definitely better than keeping something you cannot use.

 

[Pielorinho]

I've always played that specific wands have specific activation words. Wands that are sold often have those words etched on them; wands created by their intended users often don't.

I dislike how D20 handles item identification, and will suggest you think not only about the technically correct way to do it, but also about how to do it that would be fun. Talk with your players about this: some folks like having IDing items be very easy, some folks like having it be complicated, and some folks like something in-between.

Normally, instead of telling folks the school of magic associated with an item when they cast detect magic, I give them a metaphorical hint. Boots of striding and springing might show up under detect magic as being superimposed with a faint outline of a rabbit; a ring of protection might either contain a zephyr spirit (that blows attacks aside) or be reinforced with runes of steel and granite; a wand of fireballs might contain the spirit of an inferno.

This is more fun for our group.
Daniel

 

[WonkaMania]

Wait, why exactly are they so resistant to just casting Identify? Yes, it costs 100 gold worth of material components each and every time you wish to cast it, but it's a damn necessity. You really are being kind as it stands with telling them their bonuses...

Without identify, you "could" let them figure out how to cast the spell out of kindness, but they still would have no idea when it's out of shots till they waste a round "firing" an empty stick.

Well, they are a bit tight with their money I've noticed, but really the main thing is that they do not have the Identify spell, and they are out on an adventure in the wild and just found said items. (it'll be a few sessions before they "get back to town" ).

As for the "you really are being kind as it stands with telling them their bonuses", it just makes it easier for me to tell them "it's a +1 sword" instead of remembering each time that they attack to add a +1 to their roll.

Also, they do things like "I put the ring on and flap my arms like wings trying to fly. I try to run faster. I have Bob see if he can hit me, does he notice that it's harder to hit me?" Should I really reward the pc's when they do things like this to figure stuff out? I'm pretty sure that I read in the dmg that the dm should reward pc's when they try to do stuff like this...?

Honestly, I don't think pc's "Identify" things enough.

Firstly, wands don't have an arcane or divine affiliation. Even though it was made by a divine caster, the sorcerer can use the Wand of Protection from Good.

Hmm.. I guess I was confused. This seems correct though. I guess it's like the fact that a Cleric makes a wand of Cure Light Wounds, a Bard can use said wand, because it's on his spell list. Is that the correct way of determining if a character can use any wand or not, is if it is on their spell list?

Now, what about scrolls? Do they work the same way? If a Cleric makes a scroll of Cure Light Wounds, can a Bard use that divine scroll, even though the bard is an arcane caster? (or, just like above, does it not matter if it's "arcane" or "divine", just if it is on your spell list you can use it..?)

Secondly, wands are spell trigger items. They don't use an obscure command word; if it's a Wand of Magic Missile, and you're a wizard, you can activate it just like you'd activate any other Wand of Magic Missile.

Ok, I know that you are pretty much always dead-on Hypersmurf, but really, are all wands of magic missiles created the same? The PC that comes from lands 2,000 miles away will know how to activate a wand of magic missles that was created by a goblin shaman?

To me, it sounds like you are saying that PC's never have to cast Identify on a wand, they just "try using it" untill they get the correct spell (although it uses up a charge)...? Honestly I don't like that. To me that sounds more like the "Use Magic Device" skill, activating blindly.

So would the sorceror who picks up this magical stick, just know that "hey, I can use this wand, although I don't know what spell it casts" because the spell that's actually in it (Protection from Good) is on his spell-list? (notice I said spell list, he doesn't actually "know" this spell).

I think what's really bugging me is that anyone, anywhere, can pick up a wand created by anyone (even if it's created by a goblin, a giant, a blink dog) and just know "hey, I can use this wand" and then go about trying to get it to cast all the spells they know of untill one of them eventually works. That's just.. lame. heh.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Hmm.. I guess I was confused. This seems correct though. I guess it's like the fact that a Cleric makes a wand of Cure Light Wounds, a Bard can use said wand, because it's on his spell list. Is that the correct way of determining if a character can use any wand or not, is if it is on their spell list?

That's exactly right.

Now, what about scrolls? Do they work the same way? If a Cleric makes a scroll of Cure Light Wounds, can a Bard use that divine scroll, even though the bard is an arcane caster? (or, just like above, does it not matter if it's "arcane" or "divine", just if it is on your spell list you can use it..?)

Scrolls do come in arcane and divine flavours. To use a scroll, you must have the spell on your list, and be of the correct 'type' of magic.

A cleric can use a wand of CLW made by a bard, but not a scroll of CLW (arcane) scribed by a bard.

Ok, I know that you are pretty much always dead-on Hypersmurf, but really, are all wands of magic missiles created the same? The PC that comes from lands 2,000 miles away will know how to activate a wand of magic missles that was created by a goblin shaman?

From the SRD, under Spell Trigger activation:
"Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell."

-Hyp.

 

[evileeyore]

Also, they do things like "I put the ring on and flap my arms like wings trying to fly. I try to run faster. I have Bob see if he can hit me, does he notice that it's harder to hit me?" Should I really reward the pc's when they do things like this to figure stuff out? I'm pretty sure that I read in the dmg that the dm should reward pc's when they try to do stuff like this...?

Honestly, I don't think pc's "Identify" things enough.

Sounds like its time for a few mildly cursed and embarassing items to fall into their hands.

Nothing cures the "I'll just go ahead and put it on and ..." school of Identifing faster.



Trust me. My first 3e character had a Orcish Magical Longspear, and wanted to know what it did (we thought it did some extra stuff beyond plusses to hit, and we were to cheap to shell out the identify). So one blind activation/pretending to be a chaotic evil orc shaman (a few rough rolls) and I'm Dominated by a fish! Damned Aboleths!!


TTFN

EvilE