D&D (2024) Two Spells, One Turn Confusion Never Dies

[ezo]

This makes things like Misty Step incredibly useful and arguably a must-have. If you ever played BG3 you'll know how amazing it is to be able to BA spell and cast another spell in the same turn.

Then you're burning through spell slots like crazy if you do it often?

Misty Step is already a spell I take more often than not, but ignoring the 5E rules wouldn't make me use it more than I already do. It is my "get out of jail free" spell. Hardly game-breaking.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I mean, what bonus action spell/ action spell combo is game-breaking enough to warrant this in the first place??

The only real problem I can see is with Quickened spells (and similar) where an Action spell is cast as a Bonus Action. That can allow the delivery of some fairly devastating firepower very easily, or some nasty damage/CC combos - or just two helpings of CC if the first one isn't very successful or if they work in different ways.

Frankly though the best solution is probably just to get rid of Quicken (and any similar effects), or make it like, 1/day or something. Or maybe limit it to spells that don't do damage or inflict conditions on enemies? Because if we only look at slot spells that are "naturally" Bonus Actions, I don't think any of those cause a problem when combo'd with Action slot spells.

This makes things like Misty Step incredibly useful and arguably a must-have. If you ever played BG3 you'll know how amazing it is to be able to BA spell and cast another spell in the same turn.

BG3 shows when it is and isn't a problem pretty well though.

When you're just casting a normal Action spell and a normal Bonus Action spell, that burn slots and isn't typically a problem. It's a power increase, but not a huge one, and it feels pretty right, too.

When BG3 gives you its ludicrously overpowered version of Haste, which gives you two Actions, straight up, and you use both of those to cast nasty attack spells (whether damage or CC or both), then that is obviously ridiculously powerful. Likewise using Quickened spell to cast two (or more, with Haste) spells that are normally Actions.

Misty Step is already incredibly useful and arguably a must-have so no change there. I don't think I've seen a caster who could have it not have it ever in 5E, or rather where they did, they got it as their next spell.

 

[ezo]

The only real problem I can see is with Quickened spells (and similar) where an Action spell is cast as a Bonus Action. That can allow the delivery of some fairly devastating firepower very easily, or some nasty damage/CC combos - or just two helpings of CC if the first one isn't very successful or if they work in different ways.

Frankly though the best solution is probably just to get rid of Quicken (and any similar effects), or make it like, 1/day or something. Or maybe limit it to spells that don't do damage or inflict conditions on enemies? Because if we only look at slot spells that are "naturally" Bonus Actions, I don't think any of those cause a problem when combo'd with Action slot spells.

I don't even see that as a problem. You Quicken fireball and toss another fireball. Powerful? Certainly! But you also just used two 3rd-level slots AND 2 Sorcery Points...

As a DM, burning through resources like that won't phase me a bit. You'll have your "moment of AWESOME", but might live to regret it later.

 

[TwoSix]

The only real problem I can see is with Quickened spells (and similar) where an Action spell is cast as a Bonus Action. That can allow the delivery of some fairly devastating firepower very easily, or some nasty damage/CC combos - or just two helpings of CC if the first one isn't very successful or if they work in different ways.

Frankly though the best solution is probably just to get rid of Quicken (and any similar effects), or make it like, 1/day or something. Or maybe limit it to spells that don't do damage or inflict conditions on enemies? Because if we only look at slot spells that are "naturally" Bonus Actions, I don't think any of those cause a problem when combo'd with Action slot spells.

Agreed. I feel like the initial 2014 intent was just to be "Cast 1 spell a round" to help throttle spellcasters from going nova, but then they had to carve in this weird exception for cantrips, and the whole terminology around it grew awkward.

 

[DEFCON 1]

For the most part it was a good group. They cared about narrative and story, they also took advantage of the rules.

Of course. Gamers gonna game.

My whole point though is that it's absolutely fine to not get so fixated on the rules and what "is allowed" at the expense of all the other facets of the game. And things like trying to jurisdict which spells can and can't be cast during a "turn" or what falls under the designation of a "turn" and all those other bits and bobs that we need to "account for" can just become tedious after a while (for a lot of players). And at those times just the standard "common sense" approach to the game is a perfectly reasonable alternative than trying to hack your way through all the weeds.

 

[clearstream]

The PHB 2024 it now states regarding spell casting:

"On a turn, you can expend only one spell slot to cast a spell. This rule means you can't, for example, cast a spell with a spell slot using the magic action and another one using a Bonus Action on the same turn."

This nicely clarifies the clunky way the "two spell per turn" rule was rolled out in 2014. But I think this new wording means that a spellcaster could use a bonus action to cast a spell using a spell slot, then use a Wand (or some other item) as an action to cast another spell that would normally use a spell slot,

Previously, Jeremy Crawford stated that no matter where the spell casting came from... only one "levelled" spell could be used per turn.

But now, since the wording has shifted focus to whether or not you are blowing a spell slot, it seems that Sage Advice is moot.

Am I right? What say you?

The "Magic Action" is also used to manage this, for instance Action Surge doesn't give you another Magic Action.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I don't even see that as a problem. You Quicken fireball and toss another fireball. Powerful? Certainly! But you also just used two 3rd-level slots AND 3 Sorcery Points...

I think it is a problem because it's such a large gain to caster, specifically Sorcerer power over all other classes. You can basically end some encounters round one.

As a DM, burning through resources like that won't phase me a bit. You'll have your "moment of AWESOME", but might live to regret it later.

That's not so though, because you burn through a relatively small amount of resources to prevent the party using up a ton of resources. Sure, that individual character might be weaker later on, but the overall party resource savings from completely devastating alpha strikes shouldn't be overlooked.

Two fireballs is 2x 3rd level slots and 2 (not 3, unless it increased in 2024) Sorcery points, which sure, is significant. But if the other characters are saved a bunch of spell slots and other daily or even significant short rest resources, it's a massive win overall. Particularly in attrition-heavy scenarios, oddly enough - it's actually much more significant there than in the "5 minute work day", where you'll regain all the resources for the party anyway.

I hope that makes sense, I can try and explain better - but powerful alpha strikes very often are big resource savers and help most in attrition-heavy campaigns (this is also true in videogames, note, and BG3 helps to illustrate it).

 

[Distracted DM]

I think it is a problem because it's such a large gain to caster, specifically Sorcerer power over all other classes. You can basically end some encounters round one.

That's not so though, because you burn through a relatively small amount of resources to prevent the party using up a ton of resources. Sure, that individual character might be weaker later on, but the overall party resource savings from completely devastating alpha strikes shouldn't be overlooked.

Two fireballs is 2x 3rd level slots and 2 (not 3, unless it increased in 2024) Sorcery points, which sure, is significant. But if the other characters are saved a bunch of spell slots and other daily or even significant short rest resources, it's a massive win overall. Particularly in attrition-heavy scenarios, oddly enough - it's actually much more significant there than in the "5 minute work day", where you'll regain all the resources for the party anyway.

I hope that makes sense, I can try and explain better - but powerful alpha strikes very often are big resource savers and help most in attrition-heavy campaigns.

Appreciate your explanation here, I think it gets your point across as well as anything could.

 

[Oofta]

Of course. Gamers gonna game.

My whole point though is that it's absolutely fine to not get so fixated on the rules and what "is allowed" at the expense of all the other facets of the game. And things like trying to jurisdict which spells can and can't be cast during a "turn" or what falls under the designation of a "turn" and all those other bits and bobs that we need to "account for" can just become tedious after a while (for a lot of players). And at those times just the standard "common sense" approach to the game is a perfectly reasonable alternative than trying to hack your way through all the weeds.

So what's the solution? The DM could basically never use a normal spellcaster as an antagonist, they never got a spell off. It directly impacted the stories she could tell.

 

[GMMichael]

"On a turn, you can expend only one spell slot to cast a spell. This rule means you can't, for example, cast a spell with a spell slot using the magic action and another one using a Bonus Action on the same turn."

It's pretty clear. One spell slot per turn. But, it's not, because you don't expend spell slots - you expend spells. A spell "fits" into a slot, so I have to wonder what happens to the spell when the slot is "expended." It's like making eggs by putting the carton in the pan.

Anyway, the Free Rules give a nice list for "Casting Without Slots."

Previously, Jeremy Crawford stated that no matter where the spell casting came from... only one "levelled" spell could be used per turn.

Yeah, that's useless now, because every spell has a level.

Two Spells, One Turn Confusion Never Dies

Yeah, it's like a zombie. Or an animated corpse. A corporeal corpse. No, a corporation . . .