DM problems

[Oryan77]

PCs:
HawkEye: Wild Elf, Ranger 4
Scorpion: High Elf, Wizard 3
Vincent:: Human, Ninja 2, Swordsage 2 (me)

This explains why the other players attacked you. You have names like HawkEye and Scorpion, then you have Vincent? How are you ever going to fit in if your name makes you look like you're their butler? Batman had Alfred, HawkEye and Scorpion have Vincent. You don't want that image. Plus, they may have been less quick to attack you if your name was Dr. Terrible.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Now our DM has had some issues over these sessions that we keep trying to work out but he keeps basicly saying "I altered the rules a bit because I didn't like (fill in the blank)."
and really this would be perfectly okay if it didn't effect gameplay for the players in such negative ways

I don't think it'd ever be ok. I try to make all my changes before starting a campaign for ample notice. If anything comes up during a game that I realize I want to houserule, unless said thing REALLY bothers me, I will follow the rules as written for that session and declare the rule changed for any future sessions. And pretty much the only times I've made on the spot houserules, it's been to the players' benefit. Because "I'm going to change this immediately to such a way as to screw you over" just screams "I'm a dick!"

---Problem---
The first issue was that he was unacceptably stingy on wealth, we started the game with nothing because we were immediately captured and sentinced to death (and escaped) now we a fair ways in but at level 3-4 we have a total wealth (including gear) of around 200gp per player because he "doesn't like treasure tables, they are to random" and "I don't follow the exected wealth because it tries to make things to precise"
this last seasion we killed something and he rolled a 1 on the treasure table and we got nothing so he said "see treasure tables are to random"
how are we supposed to get equipment at this rate?

You can't, and that's his intentions. Like others said, play a sorc with eschew materials. They literally need nothing to cast their spells. Avoid being a warrior or rogue type in those sorts of games as much as possible. Divorce yourself from needing magical loot to function. If you're willing to store some holly and mistletoe in...dark places...druid can also work. Yeah, their foci are literally FREE, but don't put it past a DM like this to rob you blind even of that and stick you in a desert.

Second is that he makes puzzles that adapt as we try to solve them, an example of this was:

I was sleeping in at the Inn (in the basement, by myself because the rest of my party was mad at me) and at 1am 2 people came down the (please note this) stairs, they were trying to move silently and one failed (rolled natural 1 + 3) so I got a listen (rolled natural 20 + 10, DC 11) check and I heard them and woke up. Now they picked the lock (with mage hand, which doesn't make sense to me since they didn't even have to roll anything) and entered the room (I was not allowed to move till they had entered) now since I was awake I recognized them as HawkeEye and Scorpion. They demanded something of mine, blah blah... I said no... they wanted to start a fight.... DM opened up a grid (we can now see what the inn looks like, basicly a 10 foot wide hall leading to a small room) and we rolled initiative. Scorpion and I tied (Scor rolled 8 + 3, I rolled 7 + 4) he said we needed to roll d20s with no modifiers to see who would actually go first (I thought it would be a Dex check but didn't say anything)
Scorpion won so I went last... they attacked me and did no damage but blinded me, I turned invisible with ghost step(Ex ninja ability) and ran for the door I got into the hall and ended my round they attacked and failed horribly. I tried to use a Martial Manuaver from my swordsage levels but the DM said that I had been asleep so I couldn't use them (please someone tell me if this is true). so I said that I am running upstairs. The DM looks at me funny and said "um, it's a ladder". We were all like WHAT??? but whatever, I said that I would climb the ladder. DM says you are at the top. I say I'm going upstairs. He says "you push on the trap door but it seems stuck, it sounds like the Innkeeper is standing on it" (at 1AM mind you). I say "I am gunna push him off (I know I have 17 str so it shouldn't be a problem)". He replies (with a single roll ever being made) "the ladder crumbles beneith you, it was just to much weight for it". I am in total shock right now... these events are just totally unbelievable. I succeed on the check to keep from falling prone. I am still invisible but my opponents have "pinpointed me" because of the ladder problem, they are both ranged attackers so they both fire down the hall and hit me. They are still in the room so if I move 5ft. up they cannot hit me anymore without coming out of the room so I say thats where I am moving. The DM replies " actually it is only a 5ft. hallway its not really 10ft.

The initiative rules are such that if there is a tie, higher bonus wins (this is true of all ability and skill checks; initiative is a dexterity ability check). If the bonuses are tied, only then do those tying creatures roll off to see who goes first. Regardless, they both go before and after anyone who rolled lower or higher than them (respectively) in the first place. The guy who rolled below both of you should have gone last.

Once your maneuvers are readied, they stay readied until you change them to different readied maneuvers. The only thing sleeping forces you to do is spend a swft to enter a stance, as I don't think you can maintain your stance while sleeping. But I may be wrong there.

Did your "friends" have to roll a % die to see if they hit you? Even if they know where you are, if they can't see you, you have a 50% miss chance.

Only other comment here is your DM was pulling changes to the scenery and rules out of his ass, that was total bs, etc, etc...

Now seriously I thank you if you have read this far but as you can see this was not exactly the fairest fight in the first place, and to make matters worse the DM was in my opinion crushing everything I could possibly do to survive. In the end I ran out of Ghost Step uses and had to surrender and give up my items to my friends (this was fine, I took them back later) but the scenario adapted to counter my every move.
Is this fair play by the DM?

No. DMs aren't supposed to metagame (use knowledge he has in the real world about creatures or other things that his character should not have), but this is beyond metagaming. He's literally changing the world on the spot just to screw you over. Drop this DM. Try the gamers seeking gamers forum, get into an online game if no one else in your area can DM competently.

Now I thought this was supposed to be an encounter right? Not a "you will now die". The whole issue was solved and it had NOTHING to do with anything it was just a "you have been captured" moment with no real purpose at all, they gained nor lost anything from this encounter, it was just a really big pain.

He wanted them to be captured, he could've just made it a cutscene. Also, I find it funny how poor you guys are yet those bandits were blowing through poisoned darts like they cost the same as a regular blowgun dart. And yes, the blindness was also bs.

I know that technically a DM can send whatever creatures he wants at you but was this really a valid way to DM, personally this is how you lose players.

No. DM can technically send anything at a party, it doesn't mean he should. Just like you can technically do a lot of things, it doesn't mean you should. Leave his game.

He claimed when we first started that his puzzles "didn't have loopholes" well I now believe him, it is because he seems to just make them up as we go and just counters all solutions until we find a non-loophole solution.

Creative solutions aren't loopholes, and they're what makes pen and paper games different than video games and computer RPGs. If there's only going to be one method to solve the problem, a computer can handle that much better than a human.

This got quite long winded but I was wondering what we could say to the DM to make him reconsider his DMing style or a way to "from the rulebooks" make him less I don't know... mean?

How old is he? If he's older than like...20, it's likely a lost cause. If he's still fairly young you might be able rehabilitate him yet before he gets stuck in his ways. Of course, the easiest way to do that is to show him how a good game is run...

That's fine... provided the DM informs the players of the changes. It's not fair to players to have them assume the rules work one way (as written), base choices on those assumptions, and only then find things work completely differently.

Absolutely.

This is the only part of your post where I feel you are being unreasonable. The answer to your question is clearly "you're not". The DM is running a low-treasure game, and that's a valid game style. He should probably have told you up-front that that was his style.

I disagree. Low treasure games destroy the already laughable caster/noncaster balance and completely wreck the expected challenge of the party towards foes. If you wanted it to work, it's possible. But you'd need to make MASSIVE changes to the game. IME and in the OP's case, a DM who declares a "low-magic" game either is out to (intentionally or unintentionally) hose noncasters as much as possible or thinks a "gritty" game is somehow more realistic despite still allowing people to play casters. Or both. "Low treasure" is not a valid game style in D&D, unless "the game still working" is not a requirement for something to be valid.

 

[InvincibleWall]

Thank you all again for the advice (EnWorld is so cool)

lots of people keep mentioning using sorcerer and eschew materials
or vow of poverty

but I am already lvl 4 and I have 2 classes. I am at this point incapable of multiclassing without penalties. I have searched all the manuals I can find for spell casters prestige classes that have non-spell casting prerequisites so that I could start using spells but none that go to lvl 9 spells seem to exist. And for vow of poverty I need to survive till lvl 6 to get a new feat. Last session he sent a Spiked, felldrake from Draconomicon at us. We barely survived that.

Now about talking to the DM, we have talked. The problem is he doesn't think there is anything wrong and doesn't see any of the problems. I need to find a way to make it insanely obvious or make some rules that he should follow to actually prevent him from "cheating" (adapting puzzles) because currently they are all in his head. We have no way of knowing he didn't actually think the ladder was fragile or that the innkeeper was awake. I am starting to write some guidelines for our DM that will give us a "prove it" counter for ludicrous situations such as doors suddenly becoming stuck even though it was opened and shut twice about 5 minutes ago.

Oh and I am adding something to my other questions. Can a DM add feats to a creature (beyond their normal limit) without increasing the DC?

 

[BriarMonkey]

If you have to "prove" that your DM is wrong, however you define that, then you really need to move on. Get rid of him because he will never learn.

You and the others should play some mini-campaigns where you take turns DMing. This will allow you to learn the rules and get some experiance under your belt. Who knows, one of you may have a nack for the DM's chair.

And before you think you can't, you can. It does not take an encyclopedic knowledge of the rules - all it takes is some creativity and a sense of fair play. The rest will fall into line.

 

[Oryan77]

Can a DM add feats to a creature (beyond their normal limit) without increasing the DC?

A bit of advice (and others may disagree with me), but I suggest that you not worry about what the DM is doing behind the scenes. Especially when it comes to how his monsters and NPCs work. Not every DM is going to run NPCs by the book. A lot of DMs will make up stats as they go and never have the NPC stats written on paper. I'm sure most DMs don't even prepare a spell list. They just use whatever spell works for the occasion.

Who cares if a door becomes stuck. Figure out how to overcome that obstacle. Just go with the flow and deal with the situation as it comes up. If you need to, ask the DM, "how come everything that happens works against us, like the weak ladder or stuck door, but nothing like this ever happens in our favor?" A good DM needs to remember that there should be a good balance. You need to reward the PCs as often as you screw them. He may just not be aware of what he is doing.

It also doesn't matter if a monster has an extra feat or two. As a player, you should not concern yourself with "what is fair" or the CR of a monster. The game world shouldn't be fair. An NPC tweak here & there is not a game breaker unless the DM change can have a drastic affect. There could be story reasons for why a tweak needs to happen and the DM may think it enhances the fun (even if it is just for for his own enjoyment). From a game perspective, all that you should care about is whether his world is being unfair often enough that you don't enjoy playing in it. If you don't enjoy it, don't play it.

Questioning these type of things will just cause you to resent the game and the DM and suck out any sort of fun you might have. Either enjoy the game, or stop playing it. Too many players stick around and complain until all hell breaks loose. Just like he can be a bad DM, you can be a bad player.

 

[anest1s]

but I am already lvl 4 and I have 2 classes. I am at this point incapable of multiclassing without penalties.

You are a human, you can have 2 classes at the same level (or 1 lvl away) and one class higher level without taking any exp penalty, because your favored class is: "Any. When determining whether a multiclass human takes an experience point penalty, his or her highest-level class does not count."

I am starting to write some guidelines for our DM that will give us a "prove it" counter for ludicrous situations such as doors suddenly becoming stuck even though it was opened and shut twice about 5 minutes ago.

You can't request that he shows you his notes. You can "predict" things however. "If we try to go back the walls will start walking and close our way again. Or the door will get stuck. I don't think you will let me go back anyway. Can I roll a Wisdom check to see what way you will stop me this time?"

And when you forget to do that you can always go "Oh that was SO unpredictable. Can it be sharks with laser beams attached to their heads next time please?"

At some point he will either stop doing it, or rage-quit.

Oh and I am adding something to my other questions. Can a DM add feats to a creature (beyond their normal limit) without increasing the DC?

No. But one feat won't make a huge difference most of the time. I think.

Also what Oryan said. Low wealth and hard monsters are your characters problem, not yours (not out-of-game problems). The world being unfair and no fun for no reason is.

And he is right about your name too.

 

[Wyvernhand]

Vincent Vega was no man's butler. If your character dies, your next one should be named Jules, and he should carry a wallet that says Bad Ass Melon Farmer on it.

 

[Crust]

As DM of my own group, my players often try to hold me accountable to the written rules, and most of the time, I do adhere to the RAW. The 3.5 rules are so specific that any action can be interpreted by a die roll and a modifier of some kind. There’s very little that a DM can invent that an experienced player won’t spot as outside the RAW and therefore “DM BS.” I’ll admit it’s annoying when my players tell me what I can and can’t do, but it’s important that my players understand that 2+2=4 on both sides of the DM screen, so deviating from “reality” is something I rarely attempt.

The 3.5 rules are so specific that if DMs adhere to the RAW for the most part, players should feel comfortable knowing that their actions will have “this” result in most cases. Players can trust that if they can think it up, there’s a rule to back it up, and players who know the rules can make better decisions and anticipate things in advance, allowing for some interesting gaming. However, if the DM is altering the rules and observable reality round by round, he’s a terrible storyteller and should probably read a novel or ten. There has to be a common understanding between player and DM of what can and can’t be done, and the DM can only go so far when bending that reality before players start opting out of the game.

In my own experience, a player of mine recently said to me before his PC entered Avernus, “I’m worried about what you’ve cooked up for us.” My response to him was, “You mean what the devils have cooked up.” I’ve been playing with these guys since 1998, so we know what to expect from each other. When I deviate from the rules, there’s always a rational reason for it, and if players press me for answers, I provide them. In the case of monsters and other enemies, I hardly ever use monsters as they exist in the published rules. They’re always advanced, with class levels or additional hit die, so my players know that studying the monster manuals may be interesting reading, but it’s not going to allow much metagaming.

DMing is often about reacting to the players’ decisions, not about following a script. At least that’s how I see it from a casual DM’s perspective. If the DM decides that his hobgoblin boss suddenly requires uncanny dodge, that hobgoblin suddenly becomes a barbarian, and in the next round, he might rage. This assumes that the hobgoblin hasn’t already behaved in such a way that makes barbarian levels impossible or ridiculous. This is not intended to screw with players’ heads (though unfortunately that’s what happens). It’s intended to create tension, conflict, and an exciting encounter that players won’t easily breeze through. I edit on the fly at a near-constant rate.

 

[InvincibleWall]

Lol I am sorry for adding the extra question without explanation

I was asking for 2 reasons, 1 because I would like to learn how to DM eventually and 2 because of a very odd encounter we had with some guards gambling at a table.

We walked into a guard house and the guards were gambling at the table, they weren't aware of us. I started sneaking up to them and the Ranger HawkEye just opened fire. Now it is my understanding that this basically started a surprise round but right after the shots were fired and before initiative was rolled, the guard with his back to us whirled around, drew his sword used charge and ran 45 feet and then used a full round attack action (oh and he ran past me with no attack of opportunity) he got a crit on the ranger and then we rolled initiative... I was a bit baffled. I asked how he did that and he said "Improved Initiative, Quick Draw, Uncanny Dodge, Rapid something or other that he described as the melee version of rapid shot and Improved Charge"

it ended up being a CR2 elf guard (calculated from the exp we earned since he told us where we got it in that encounter)

I now know that even with those feats he can't do that, but if they did why was that a CR2???????

 

[Oryan77]

it ended up being a CR2 elf guard (calculated from the exp we earned since he told us where we got it in that encounter)

I now know that even with those feats he can't do that, but if they did why was that a CR2???????

Again, I can't stress this enough; don't try to determine what CR, stats, or anything an NPC might have. It will drive you bonkers and it can be extremely annoying to a DM when a player makes assumptions like this.

It honestly shouldn't be any of your business what feats his NPCs have or how they are able to do something. All you should be dealing with is "how do I defeat these elven guards." Keep things in-game and you will enjoy yourself much more. Once you start doing the math out of game and trying to figure out what the DM is doing, has done, or will do, you are going to keep doing what you're doing now and coming to the internet to complain. You could be ruining your own fun. You need to trust your DM to be fair & I don't consider adding a feat or two to be all that unfair. If you survived the elven guards attacks and survived the encounter, then it doesn't matter if the NPC had 10 feats at level 2, does it?

If you feel that the DM is cheating by doing this, then doesn't that make your PC pretty badass for defeating his NPCs without needing extra feats like they did?

*edit, BTW, it does sound like the DM is pulling stuff out of thin air and giving you guys answers only because you are grilling him about it. DMs are not perfect (except for maybe Piratecat). It's possible he screwed up by using too many actions or abilities an NPC didn't have access to and just gave you an answer so he didn't look incompetent. Even though a wrong answer may look incompetent.