D&D 5E DMing, Sandboxes, and Boring Dungeons. HELP

[edhel]

My general advice first, based on my tastes and experience:

1) Plan the campaign from the antagonists' viewpoint. Don't make assumptions about PCs actions. You are creating the premise for adventure in a sandbox, not a story and definitely not the plot. Those are created through play. Your PCs should have something they care about, and then have the "enemy" threaten that.

2) This one's a matter of taste, but: Make your plot revolve about something relatable and/or human. Don't make your plot revolve around some McGuffin that trapped a chocolate dragon soul 5000 years ago. Your antagonists may be powerful but they can also be very human and petty. Maybe the wizard wants revenge on his half-brother who now rules the kingdom. Maybe he wishes to be an enlightened tyrant and maybe he's actually right, but his methods are heavy-handed and terrible. All that fantasy stuff around the goal are just tools for achieving something PCs can wrap their heads around.

3) Track time. Just print out a calendar and mark down major events. Have down time. Have 'special days' - e.g. the most magical day of the year, "Christmas", even birthdays.

4) The antagonists have limited resources, limited information, and will react to PCs meddling with their plans. There should be envoys, assassins, messengers, misdirection, kidnappings, threatening letters and all that fun stuff. The antagonists might be in plain sight but unreachable due to their political or magical power. They might have lieutenants that are true believers but not bad people. Create problems that can't be solved by killing people.

5) There's good advice online helping you run a sandbox successfully:
A Method For Making A D&D Sandbox
Sandboxes And The Roguish Work Ethic

6) There's good advice helping you become a better storyteller and improviser:
The Storytelling King
Stephen King's Third Eye

7) Create plot points. Ideally they're small adventures that can be dropped almost anywhere in your sandbox.

8) Don't get too attached to your ideas, and don't overprep. Just prepare to improvise - collect weather tables, random item charts etc.

9) Involve your player in the creation process. Let them decide their religions and home regions. Almost everyone should also have family since it's a good source for drama.

10) Have consequences for the PCs actions. Make them sometimes choose the lesser of two evils. If there's something happening in the background, make the players understand what's happening through the events inside the game world. Show don't tell.

Hi everyone.
SANDBOX ADVENTURES:
So when I decided to make my own adventure, it was super derivative (which the players noticed to my embarrassment) and I still felt like I was forcing the players down a story line. I'm beginning to understand the importance of focusing of the setting and events occurring over an area rather than a movie-like plot. But the problem is, I am not creative enough to come up with a whole campaign by myself without ripping off popular movies/shows. T_T

There's nothing wrong with borrowing ideas. There are no new ideas left. What matters is what kind of impact they have on your players: What is at stake? Who wants what and why can't they have it? What are the short and longterm consequences of the PCs actions?

So I need help. I figured Hoard of the Dragon Queen could help me achieve that, but if it's just a series of small interactions and linked dungeons, I'm going to cancel my preorder. If anyone has HotDQ already, please let me know what it's like! What do I even need to run a sandbox? Are published adventures even what I'm looking for? Maybe campaign setting books (none planned for 5e)? I am running the 5e starter adventure, and it seemed open when the players got to the main town hub, trying to figure out what's going on, but once they collected all the intel, it just became one dungeon after another in search of the mcguffin. There's also no info on the surrounding areas. The players wanted to go to Neverwinter to get better supplies and etc, but I know nothing of this city! No info whatsoever, even tho the players supposedly just came from there .

There's a lot of stuff (most of it quite bad, IMHO) written about Forgotten Realms. You are not tied to it. You can invent your own Neverwinter. If the PCs just visit the city, you can just sketch it lightly, and add more detail as time goes on. If you need a map, you can find one easily on google images.

HATE DUNGEONS
I am learning to hate the idea of dungeons. It always devolves into: search for traps, clear room, search/loot, repeat. I can FEEL the exasperation of the players as they try to rush to get through. It almost feels like playing an old JRPG where you're trying to get to the next town, but forced to stop by random encounters in between. After 4e, I decided to try to "theater of the mind" a dungeon in the 5e starter set, but the players lost their sense of direction and tactical awareness. The wizard complained how he didn't know how to space out his movements and AOE spells. Everyone got lost since they didn't know which room connected to which hallway without their grid. I still think I prefer theater of the mind, but I don't think these dungeons could stay as-is. Perhaps I could strip down these dungeons to a few areas with the memorable enemies and traps? How do you deal with stuff like zoning, flanking, etc and AOE spells using the "theater" method? Does anyone use a diceroll to determine how many enemies get hit within blast range or if allies get caught up in it too? How do you keep the players from getting lost in these complicated dungeons without a battlemap drawn in? I am DREADING the last dungeon in the starter set. LOOK AT THE MAP! OMG!

HALP

Dungeons are great. They're a limited space for adventuring and really easy to handle. Don't get too tied to the exact layout of the dungeon. The 'Five room dungeon' is a good rule of thumb for any game. Google for more information about dungeon design. They ARE fun. Remember that they aren't just places underground, but any space that limits PCs movement.

 

[Ravenheart87]

Ravenheart87
When you mention the player's drawning their own maps, do you mean have the players play cartographer based on what they experience? I mean...if this works, it could be an amazing way to engage the players while reducing my work!

Yes, it was pretty common back in the days to create their own maps. You can start with basic description so they can base their drawing on something, then tell them the details (no need to draw those). There's usually a cartographer among my players.

How would you determine which enemies and allies get caught in say... a blast 3 spell?

I usually have a sketch about who stands where in my notebook. Plus common sense.

Also, I'm not sure what to make of the sources you posted. Are the settings stuff I can just plug right into D&D 5e?

Well, they are usually for earlier editions, different systems or are system neutral supplements. I pointed them out as examples, not as something you can use as written for a 5e campaign. Some conversion and changing encounters would be required to use in 5e, but what's most important is they are good examples how to make sandbox and dungeon.

 

[Ravenheart87]

All
Man, it seems so scary to go in without knowing much. I've like to have EVERYTHING ready and planned out, but that's that not going to be feasible if it's truly a sandbox. Urg, I guess I have to try it...hopefully it wont be god awful for the players >.< I hate it when I freeze because I don't know the answer.

It might seem scary, but don't worry, you don't have to have EVERYTHING ready and planned out, only what's important. The rest can remain sketchy or be improvised, and if you need some help to spark your imagination just roll on a random table. Plus you can expand your sandbox later. New people will appear, new dungeons will surface, roads will be opened and so on.

As for the Conley articles: he's hardcore and he likes to be more-or-less realistic. No one will care if your currents or weather aren't realistic.

There's a nice system neutral supplement full of random tables that you might find handy. It's called the d30 sandbox companion. Don't worry if you don't have a d30, you can do it with a d6 and d10.

 

[Bradley Hindman]

Man do I hear you about dungeons...

Don't try to have everything make sense or have it all planned. You don't actually have to have the answer to any questions they might ask. When they ask "Wait! Isn't Covey a god of peace? How is he okay with to two different militant sects that are vigorously trying to kill each other?" Its perfectly fine to respond with: "How are you trying to find out?" Especially if you've stumbled into that situation unthinkingly.

I used to dread these moments when the players would find a plot hole. Now I relish them. Just smile knowingly that you are fully aware that on the surface there is an inconsistency. The players will start throwing out all sorts of ideas to fill in the hole you left accidentally. Keep mental notes of their ideas. Pick one and secretly go with it. The story will feel deep and dramatic and the players will feel smart for seeing through your convoluted plot.

 

[Gargoyle]

Just a few pieces of advice which may have already been touched on, all IMO. I'm a big fan of sandbox campaigns.

1. Don't over prepare. Think about how far your group will get during an average session. Prepare for that, and maybe just a little more. In a good sandbox game they will get to make some decisions during the session, but you don't need the whole world mapped out, just a little more than what's over the horizon. Take that literally with regard to maps, but also metaphorically, with regard to how much you flesh out NPC's etc. If you prepare for more, it hurts your ability to improvise and adapt to the choices they make during the session. IMO you shouldn't design too far ahead, because the point of it is to customize the next session based on what they did this time.

2. Keep things moving. There is nothing worse than a DM sifting through notes or rules, or letting a player bog things down. It's better to get a rule wrong or make something up that is bad or cheesy than to spend 5 minutes looking for your perfectly written notes. This is just good advice for any type of campaign, but it's so good I couldn't leave it out.

3. There should be three plots for the party to pursue. These are major things associated with quests that they can choose to get involved in, or not. More than three is too much work for both the DM and players, but of course you may disagree and have more. Only two is more of a choose your own adventure campaign, which may be fine, but isn't exactly a sandbox, and only one is a railroad, which of course may also be fine (railroads get a bad rep, but everyone loves adventure paths? lol), but of course isn't a sandbox. These do not include small subplots, of which there should be as many as you feel like presenting. This may not be a "pure sandbox" but I think it's more practical, and since you can drop a plot and create new ones based on the player's interests, it's still very sandboxy.

4. Let the world suffer when a major plot isn't resolved. One thing about a good sandbox is that things happen even if the PC's don't get involved. Three major plots might be:

- rescuing a princess from a dragon
- defeating a necromancer's army of undead
- stopping a ritual from opening a portal to the outer realms

The party might want to pursue all of them, or just one or two. But if they ignore a plot, let the world feel it. Bad things should happen.

You can make it impossible to solve all these issue so that they have to let one evil plot succeed, but if they really make an effort to fight off the undead army before breakfast so they have time to save the princess, let them. The point of this is to gauge their interest. If I only present them with one path, they will trudge on and rescue the princess from the dragon. But if I present them with choices, (and you can be very overt about this, with bounty boards or even cards with quests on them if you wish, especially at the beginning of the game) they will let you know which ones they are interested in, so you know what to start fleshing out.

The death of the princess may result in her despondent father becoming mad and his evil adviser taking over and ruling with an iron fist, increasing taxes and raising the prices of everything and imprisoning anyone who speaks ill of him.

Not stopping the ritual could result in wandering monster encounters with aberrations that slither through the portal.

Not stopping the army of undead could result in a costly war, and result in plague and more encounters with undead.

This of course can present more plots for them to pursue, and when one is complete, you can create another one, preferably just before they wrap one up to give it an organic feel.

5. Make certain that the player characters have allies that are loyal, competent, and useful. They don't have to have any combat ability, it can be as simple as:

- a weaponsmith who does exceptional work
- a noble in the court or street urchin willing to impart valuable information
- a member of the city watch willing to look the other way or take their side in a dispute
- a farmer glad to shelter them
- an orphanage of kids that admire the adventurers
- an innkeeper who used to be an adventurer until he took an arrow to the knee

Just remember they need to be loyal, competent, and useful. Annoying NPC's aren't going to be cared about.

Throughout the campaign, keep these people safe and loyal. Don't use them as hostages or have them turn traitorous (you can do this with other NPCs, just decide ahead of time that these ones are reliable allies and resources). But don't hesitate to let the world harm them if a plot is ignored or failed. Having real friends will motivate the PC's to act like real heroes, or at least give them something to care about besides treasure and power. I think this is especially important in sandbox campaigns, since players are deciding the direction of the campaign. They often want to be heroic, but DM's don't give them the opportunity. Even mercenaries who don't care about these characters want the ability to express that, so the existence of these types of characters is good for everyone.

6. Be ready to drop (or change) your favorite stuff. If they don't express interest in a plot or a character, you have to stop pushing it and develop something else. You can always bring back that character or plot later, reskinning it to something they might be interested in. This point is why I say don't over prepare. If you spend hours detailing the town of Whateverville, only to see them yawn and decide to leave to go to Niftytown, you've wasted your time and made the game less fun for you.

One thing you can do is take the cool parts of Whateverville that they haven't seen yet, and plug them into Niftytown. If they haven't experienced it yet, you shouldn't throw it out, just move it. Same goes for NPCs. If they never meet Baron Somesuch because they never went to that part of the map, move him and rename him if you must. Just don't push something that the majority of your players clearly have no interest in, drop it, even if you liked it. Maybe you can use it in another campaign or later.

7. It's ok to railroad for a little while. Even in a sandbox, there are times when the party will be involved in a sequence of events that you've planned out. This is ok, as long as they seem to enjoy it, and as long as it's not too long and restrictive. I mention this because I think a lot of DM's get afraid of railroading, but hey, every now and then a good old fashioned dungeon crawl or a series of gauntlet style encounters can be fun. I especially think it's ok to throw in a published adventure in the middle of a sandbox campaign, treating it as just another plot that they can pursue, delay or abandon as they see fit. You could even do this with multiple planned adventures. After all, three railroads aren't really a railroad.

 

[Yora]

Man do I hear you about dungeons...

My current group consist almost entirely out of completely new players. And last time we played I could clearly hear the mocking when a player mumbled "oh wow, another cave in the forest". It was only the fourth game he ever played and the fourth dungeon in that campaign, and it was already getting old.

I have one big adventure planned which is basically a sandbox consisting of a ruined city, in which there are currently three factions, of which one is looking for some mysterious treasure. And the whole thing is based directly on a single level from Mass Effect. But unlike in a video game, this time the player have the opportunity to not follow the plot but instead talk to people instead of fighting them, switch sides, snoop around on their own, and sl on.

 

[Libramarian]

Well dungeons suck right now because you're a newbie DM struggling with basic processes like mapping. My biggest piece of advice is to build your game bottom up --learn how to run a good dungeon, then add a story around it. Find out what it takes for a decontextualized dungeon to be fun, get that down to a science, and then add more. The players should feel tension not because they might fail a quest but because they might lose a character. The treasure should be thrilling not because it's a plot macguffin but because it makes their character more powerful. Don't try to cover up for boring/frustrating dungeoncrawling by making the story around it interesting. Build up the complexity of your game. Go from details to big picture.

Dungeons are a hugely valuable tool for running a fun game with easy prep. Try a bit more to get them to work before deciding you hate them.


Mapping:
Have one (or all) players make a simple line map (not down to each 5ft square, just showing how rooms connect to each other so they can find their way around).

AoE without a grid:
Keep distances and position in your mind, if you start to lose track, draw a simple map. If you don't know something you can roll randomly to determine it. If you sense that the players have a different mental picture of what's going on, make the consequences clear before letting them decide something, don't "gotcha" them. At the same time, it's not totally your job to make sure they know what's going on, encourage them to ask more questions too. Better players ask more questions.

 

[SpiritOfFire]

gargoyle and edhel:

Thanks a lot for your input. This seems really valuable and seemingly learned through experience. Man...I'm getting excited for the possibilities. I'm gonna read it multiple times to internalize it.

I think I will use the same setting as in the starter set, but make it my own as mentioned... beyond the specific areas mentioned in the adventure. My players are relatively new with some 4e experience, but I'm hoping one doesn't yell out "no! Neverwinter is not actually like that!" eh...


urg... why does MM and DMG have to come out so late?!

At this point, I shouldn't get Hoard of the Dragon Queen right?

 

[SpiritOfFire]

Well dungeons suck right now because you're a newbie DM struggling with basic processes like mapping. My biggest piece of advice is to build your game bottom up --learn how to run a good dungeon, then add a story around it. Find out what it takes for a decontextualized dungeon to be fun, get that down to a science, and then add more. The players should feel tension not because they might fail a quest but because they might lose a character. The treasure should be thrilling not because it's a plot macguffin but because it makes their character more powerful. Don't try to cover up for boring/frustrating dungeoncrawling by making the story around it interesting. Build up the complexity of your game. Go from details to big picture.

Hmm, while I see the validity of your advice. It seems like prolonged combat doesn't interest my players. Even if they give it some flair, it is mostly walking up and swinging. Even with traps, treasure, and cool weapons, it doesn't seem to get my players to care. A cool silvery sword which pulses with an unknown magical energy? eh pocket it and go into next room. I was shocked.... I mean these dungeons were designed by professional game designers, so I don't know if I could make them any better. It seems as if they're in a dungeon for a reason, that end goal is all they care about resolving. Most of the time, they don't even bother looting the bodies or searching actively for loot. Which is why the logical step for me seems to be to minimize dungeons to small but memorable skirmishes and focus on exploration, character interaction, and etc.

TBH the first combat in the starter set seemed to be the only FUN fight they had since they were trying to figure out what was going on, inspecting the site, and trying to gather info from the enemies. Every "dungeon" with a drawn out grid map for the DM in the adventure ended up a slogfest.

 

[drjones]

Lots of good advice here so I will just hit two things:

Just because it's sandbox does not mean you have to be the omnipotent god of an entire planet. We are just normal people with limited amounts of time to write stuff that might never be used. Give your players options about what they want to do next, but let them know that if they head off on a tangent in the middle of a quest you will need time to write new stuff. Establish nodes where things could shift in a few different ways then once that decision gate is passed by the characters, write the next bit based on their decisions. Offer options and let hem know that now is a good time to do something different, once they set out on a path it is ok to be 'not sandbox' for a while until the dungeon is cleared, the big bad guy dead, the quest completed etc.

As with any huge project bite of the bit you can handle so you are not overwhelmed trying to make the whole thing at once.

The second thing is don't be ashamed to steal from all of culture, including stuff your players will recognize. In a recent adventure I had an animated skeletal janitor that had been cleaning the same room for a hundred years (a Roomba), then a run in with a small red-robed wizard who called himself the 'Dungeon Master' in an illusion based/alternate reality version of the Tomb of Horrors (from the D&D cartoon, the old module and novel Ready Player One). My players recognized a lot of these things and loved it even though it was in Big Bad Serious Dark Sun land.

PS. One of my favorite BADWRONG tricks of running mostly sandbox games: The characters face a choice of two doors, a momentous decision. once passed the world will change and they will never be able to go back. They take door A after some discussion. What did door B lead to? The same place. In a more practical application if you make The Dungeon of Mad Wizard Guy and the players don't want to go there to save the princess, shrug and next month give them a chance to visit The Dungeon of Mad Warlock Guy to retrieve the magic rod of mcguffins and just reuse your work. They won't know, and you won't burn out.

There are ways to be bad DMs but the worst DM is one who won't play anymore. Go easy on yourself.