DMs are too easy on their players

[3catcircus]

An Adversarial DM is not a Tough DM.

A Tough DM sits down with his players before the campaign, discusses with them what kind of game they'd like, and works it out with them so they know they'll have the kind of game they're looking for. If the players want a gentler game, the Tough DM either steps aside to let another DM in his place, or he runs that requested gentler game.
The Tough DM knows it's the fun that counts. That's why the Tough DM is tough, because his players are enjoying the challenge.

The Adversarial DM is a strange critter whose nature is not clear to me.
He seems to think hurting his friends is somehow a Good Thing. He somehow thinks of his friends as his enemies, or perhaps thinks they think of him as their enemy and to be treated accordingly. Or perhaps he just thinks that the DM is god, and all players should know their lowly place. Or something equally ridiculous as the above.

I don't necessarily see the adversarial DM as *bad* - since one person's "tough DM" is another person's "adversarial DM."

Example - our current campaign. Early on, the party was in the town of Nulb (doing the T1-4 thing in 3.x). The wizard went into one of the inns and started talking to the barmaid (thief). She got him to drink her love potion and he rolled a 1 on his save. Needless to say, she took his most important things (like his headband of intellect) and skipped town.

He was prepared to burn the inn to the ground (a good PC). Once he found out that she probably fled to the temple, he was like a driven man - not stopping until he got his loot back.

Was I adversarial for taking all of his stuff? Some players would whine and say yes. Of course, he had loads of fun finally catching up to her and "interrogating" her - the point is - even an adversarial DM can create loads of fun for his players.

 

[3catcircus]

I don't want to seem anal, but bulk is already encompassed in weight, if your going to add bulk to the game, you should drop how much the stuff weighs a bit.

Understood, but my argument is specifically with *volume* - by the rules, a longsword could be placed in a backpack since neither the PHB nor the FAQ indicates how much the backpack can hold in either weight or volume. Think of it this way - what is easier to carry - a fist-sized lump of iron, or an equivalent weight in books?

 

[shilsen]

I was bluffing in my first post, and a lot of you fell for the bluff.
I played Evil DM, and you believed it.

...

Well, if I can bluff you, I can bluff my players.

Perhaps, but note that it's a lot easier to bluff people about your gaming style on a messageboard, since they can't actually see you run the game. Personally, I thought you were making an OTT post to get a response, which is why I hadn't posted yet.

The problem, is how to defeat BOREDOM.
In this, I'm faced with a paradoxical problem that has plagued DMs since Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson created the game.
As a DM, I need to challenge my players, and D&D involves a risk of dying ... that's a part of the challenge, that PCs can die.

But if I kill PCs, feelings get hurt. You know that. I know that. You can say people are 'mature' and can take it, but we all know very well that nobody likes losing characters.
Besides, these are my friends. I'm DMing to help them to a good time, not an unpleasant experience.

But ...

If I do not challenge my players, do not make the threat of death a reality, then they grow bored. Boredom will eventually kill the campaign. Boredom also leads to group fighting that might break up the group. I've seen both happen.

Here's something that I seem to be posting a lot about recently - don't assume that the threat of death is needed to either challenge players or stave off boredom. Check the recent thread about whether D&D needs another death mechanic for a good discussion on the subject.

Or just read my story hour for an example of a campaign where PC death has very intentionally almost been eliminated (one actual PC death in nearly 60 sessions, though we average a PC going below -10 hp every alternate session), but which is highly challenging and has never had a problem with boredom on the part of the players. What a game needs to be challenging, IMNSHO, is a significant possibility of failure and the existence of repercussions for it. Death is only one such repercussion and, again IMNSHO, one of the more boring of repercussions, from both a gamist and a narrativist viewpoint. Or, as I semi-joke with my players, a dead PC is a PC who has escaped the challenges, paranoia and torture that I constantly visit upon the living ones. In my book, if I have to kill PCs to challenge the players, then I'm not being particularly creative as a DM.

YMMV, and apparently does.

 

[Sound of Azure]

I was bluffing in my first post, and a lot of you fell for the bluff.
I played Evil DM, and you believed it.

So you're telling us that we should doubt the veracity of everything you have posted here, as well as all future posts?

I hereby admit defeat in the face of your incredible powers of illusion on a messageboard where it's hard to discern nuance and tone.

Unfortunately, I'm only CR 2, so you probably won't get any XP.

 

[Zurai]

Unfortunately, I'm only CR 2, so you probably won't get any XP.

 

[Quasqueton]

Backpedaling.

Quasqueton

 

[Tewligan]

If *I* - rushing, half asleep, groggy, and disorientated - can figure out a way for that party of 6 5th level characters to toast that dragon, then I'm quite sure that the rest of you could figure out a hundred different ways that party could fry that dragon.
Within the 3.5 rules.
Not within the 3.5 rules.
Either way, don't insult my intelligence (I am intelligent? ) by telling me that party can't beat that dragon.

There is nothing clever, devious, persistent, fiendish players cannot do ...

But you DIDN'T figure out a LEGITIMATE way for those scrappy level fivers to toast the dragon. Stoneskin doesn't turn you into an unmoveable stone wall. Creatures aren't out of action and free to be beaten on for several rounds if they take damage. Dragons aren't stupid enough to go slamming willy-nilly into things that irritate them like a bull seeing red. Without bizarre extenuating circumstances or houserules, that dragon will wipe them out in a couple of rounds without breaking a sweat, gobble up the remains, and forget all about it until he craps out a helmet or a spellbook a couple of days later. Can you come up with a way that a fifth level party, normally equipped and with no rules bending, can possibly beat a CR 18 red dragon who comes up on them unexpectedly?

 

[Stone Dog]

Cause they wouldn't get any players.

You'd be surprised. There are loads of people who want this kind of edge to their game, or something similar. No punches pulled. Your enemies want you DEAD and will take all reasonable measures to KILL you. Not to line up in nice orderly rooms and wait for you to show up in a predestined order to wipe them out. If they can hear battle, they will send reinforcements. If they are losing they will run and might just try and kill you in your sleep next time.

Where the dice fall, that is how much you are hit and how much damage you take. No fudging, for or against. The players gack the BBG earlier in the game than you thought they would? Good for them! A goblin shoves a stick into their brain at 1st level and yanks out their ability to regulate breathing? Tough break. The sixth level party is facing a dragon of undetermined CR? Get a damn good plan or come back when you DO have one.

As a GM I will never play favorites. I will never pull punches. I will hit below the belt once in a while. I will never lie or invent new chalanges just because I think things are too easy. I will never resort to a deux ex machina unless it is written into the system (fate points). I will not try to kill your characters, but your enemies will. I will not try to save your characters, but your allies will. Cultivate both of them carefully.

 

[Zurai]

You'd be surprised. There are loads of people who want this kind of edge to their game, or something similar. No punches pulled. Your enemies want you DEAD and will take all reasonable measures to KILL you. Not to line up in nice orderly rooms and wait for you to show up in a predestined order to wipe them out. If they can hear battle, they will send reinforcements. If they are losing they will run and might just try and kill you in your sleep next time.

Where the dice fall, that is how much you are hit and how much damage you take. No fudging, for or against. The players gack the BBG earlier in the game than you thought they would? Good for them! A goblin shoves a stick into their brain at 1st level and yanks out their ability to regulate breathing? Tough break. The sixth level party is facing a dragon of undetermined CR? Get a damn good plan or come back when you DO have one.

As a GM I will never play favorites. I will never pull punches. I will hit below the belt once in a while. I will never lie or invent new chalanges just because I think things are too easy. I will never resort to a deux ex machina unless it is written into the system (fate points). I will not try to kill your characters, but your enemies will. I will not try to save your characters, but your allies will. Cultivate both of them carefully.

You aren't talking about what Edena (was) talking about, though. He specifically said that the DM WAS out to kill the players, or at least to make them think he was.

There's a difference between a tough DM and an adversarial DM; you described a Tough DM. Edena originally described an adversarial one.

 

[Stone Dog]

You aren't talking about what Edena (was) talking about, though. He specifically said that the DM WAS out to kill the players, or at least to make them think he was.

There's a difference between a tough DM and an adversarial DM; you described a Tough DM. Edena originally described an adversarial one.

Tomato, tomahto. You look at that and say something like "hey, what the hell?" and I look at that and say "now THIS is what I've been missing."

The only thing I really disagree with in the OP is "- You think that character is of an overpowered class? A broken class? Wait until you see my MONSTERS. Then you will learn what BROKEN means. If you survive, the next monster encounter will be worse!" Mere survival isn't a licence for escalation.

However, I'm more than willing to wash that as well as the 20CR dragon vs 5 level PCs as hyperbole. Still, I've been in a game or two where a a big damn dragon or beholder was floating about laying devestation everywhere. You know what? We HID. We ran like screaming Tokyo dwellers in the face of godzilla and eventually managed to figure out what was going on, thwart a few wiles and kill that same damn monstrosity. If we bitched about whether it was "fair" we would have missed out on a very damn cool game.