Do Curses Stack?

PHB, page 311:

penalty: A negative modifier to a die roll. Penalties do not usually have a type, and always stack with other penalties (except those from the same source) unless otherwise stated.

Hello all,
I have a question regarding the definition of "source" in the above quote. What exactly is a source?

Is it?

A- The type of hinder? As an example, only ONE CURSE could be active on a player's character?
I can understand that a bestow curse that gives a character -6 dex, could not have an other bestow curse of -6 dex on him. But could he have a -6 dex, then get a -6 strength a few rounds later, and then a -6 Con, from the SAME NPC, as an example?
If no, would it work if they were from different NPC's, such as 3 evil clerics, each cast one bestow curse on the same character, affecting different stats?

Or IF the source IS the NPC, could one evil cleric cast bestow curse on a player's character giving -6 dex, and have AN OTHER NPC cast an extra -6 dex on him in the same way?

What if the character has a curse impeding 6 dex, and gets an other curse on him (like from a cursed item) that takes off 2 to each stats, would he be at -8 dex?

B- The type of stats it affects?
If a character would have a bestow curse on him of -6 dex, then gets critically wounded, where he looses 4 dex, in my opinion these would stack bringing the character to -10 dex. If on top of it, he would have the misfortune of drinking a poison that gives him -2 dex, then he would be at -12 dex no?
If my example here is affirmative, then what is the list of the different stackable "types" (or sources?)?

Any help making me understand the meaning of Source, would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
 

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Hello all,
I have a question regarding the definition of "source" in the above quote. What exactly is a source?

I believe that the correct interpretation is the following:

"Same source" as from the same ability/spell/condition... targeted at the same ability.

-Two "curses" on a subject's Dex do not stuck even if they were bestowed by two different casters, or two different "sources" (a caster & a magical item)
-Two "curses", one for Dex and one for Str, can be bestowed upon a single subject by the same source. The term "stack" does not apply cause nothing actually stacks.. Dex and Str are different abilities and the penalties bestowed upon them are equally different.
 
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I believe that the correct interpretation is the following:

"Same source" as from the same ability/spell/condition... targeted at the same ability.

Thanks for your quick response Jimlock, it has brought light to my questions. And if I am not wrong:

If a character would have a bestow curse on him of -6 dex, then gets critically wounded, where he looses 4 dex, in my opinion these would stack bringing the character to -10 dex. If on top of it, he would have the misfortune of drinking a poison that gives him -2 dex, then he would be at -12 dex because these do not come from the same ability/spell/condition... (in this case a curse, a wound and a poison), even if they target the same ability.
 

First off, in normal D&D wounds don't damage ability scores, nor do they inflict penalties to them, except if the attack has a rider effect of some sort that does so (like a bite attack that also delivers poison, or a weapon with the Exhausting enchantment).

Secondly, you should always differentiate between ability damage and penalties. For example, when you're exhausted, your Str and Dex are penalized by -6. You cannot get more exhausted than you already are, so the penalty cannot increase beyond -6 through exhausting effects. As soon as your exhausted condition expires (through rest, a Ray of Resurgence spell, etc.), that -6 penalty goes away.

If you're poisoned, though, you might take 6 points of Str or Dex damage. This damage stacks with itself (so you can be poisoned multiple times for cumulative effect), unlike exhaustion penalties. Also, ability damage does not go away when the condition that caused it expires. Casting Neutralize Poison will not restore any ability damage already dealt by a poison, for example. Instead, you need several days of rest (healing ability damage at a rate of 1 point/day), or magical healing, like the Restoration line of spells.


To pick an example similar to what you posted, let's say you have Str 16, and you're hit with a Ray of Enfeeblement that happens to inflict 6 points of Str penalty. You're then hit with a Ray of Exhaustion and fail your save, so you gain the exhausted condition which brings with it a further -6 penalty. These penalties, being untyped and from different sources, stack to produce a total penalty of -12. For all practical intents and purposes, your Str is considered to be 4 now, which sucks, until the Ray of Enfeeblement's duration expires.

Finally, you're getting poisoned with Wyvern venom and, this being an obviously :):):):):):) day, fail both your saves. Your DM rolls damage, and you take 2 points of Str damage immediately, and a further 7 points 1 minute later. These two instance of Str damage stack, because damage always stacks, even if the source (one dose of Wyvern venom) is the same. So you take a total of 9 points of Str damage.


Now what's your effective Str score? Actually, this is difficult to answer, because Ray of Enfeeblement has this little clause: 'The subject’s Strength score cannot drop below 1.'
I would read this as follows: Your damaged Str score is 7 (16 minus 9 points of damage), to which a total of twelve points of damage is applied. However, only 6 of these 12 points of penalty could theoretically lower your Str score below 1, while the other 6 points of penalty have a clause which forbids this. So your exhausted condition would be applied first (reducing your effective Str to 1), and the effects of the Ray of Enfeeblement are applied last - which means that, in this case, they're not applied at all, since your Str score is already effectively 1.

Other DMs may read this differently and apply effects impacting your ability scores in a different order (Ray of Enfeeblement non-last being the important part here), which would result in your effective Str score dropping to zero. It cannot drop below zero, however, because the SRD explicitly forbids this for all cases: 'Keeping track of negative ability score points is never necessary. A character’s ability score can’t drop below 0.'


Hope that was clear!
 
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Thanks for your quick response Jimlock, it has brought light to my questions. And if I am not wrong:

If a character would have a bestow curse on him of -6 dex, then gets critically wounded, where he looses 4 dex, in my opinion these would stack bringing the character to -10 dex. If on top of it, he would have the misfortune of drinking a poison that gives him -2 dex, then he would be at -12 dex because these do not come from the same ability/spell/condition... (in this case a curse, a wound and a poison), even if they target the same ability.

First off, what do you mean by "critically wounded, where he looses 4 dex"?

perhaps i'm missing some rule here, but as far as i know/remember-right-now there is no such thing...

three negative things can happen to an ability:
1.abilities can get "penalties"
2.abilities can get "damaged"
3.abilities can get "drained"

i assume that by "critically wounded, where he looses 4 dex" you are referring to "some" special ability/feat/spell that does one of the above three.

Poisons do ability "damage"

... As you imagine ability damages do not have a problem stacking with one another, nor do they have problem stacking with penalties (completely irrelevant)...

so to answer to your question: even if this "critical wound" as you call it, bestows a penalty to an ability (its probably ability damage though), yes it does stack with bestow curse.
 

First off, in normal D&D wounds don't damage ability scores, nor do they inflict penalties to them, except if the attack has a rider effect of some sort that does so (like a bite attack that also delivers poison, or a weapon with the Exhausting enchantment).

Secondly, you should always differentiate between ability damage and penalties. For example, when you're exhausted, your Str and Dex are penalized by -6. As soon as your fatigued condition expires (through rest, a Ray of Resurgence spell, etc.), that -6 penalty goes away.

If you're poisoned, though, you might take 6 points of Str or Dex damage. This damage stacks with itself (so you can be poisoned multiple times for cumulative effect), unlike exhaustion penalties. Also, ability damage does not go away when the condition that caused it expires. Casting Neutralize Poison will not restore any ability damage already dealt by a poison, for example. Instead, you need several days of rest (healing ability damage at a rate of 1 point/day), or magical healing, like the Restoration line of spells.

sorry for repeating some of what u said!!! i had clicked on the reply and was away for some time so i did not see you post when i was writing mine!!!

seems we agree!!!:D
 


First off, what do you mean by "critically wounded, where he looses 4 dex"?

Me bad, I just saw we are under "D&D Legacy Discussion This forum is for pre-4E D&D Rules questions, discussion, house rules and fan creations (3.x Edition D&D, 2nd Edition D&D, 1st Edition D&D, OD&D and any other pre-4E version of D&D)." section.

I found this link through the web and just subscribed. I perhaps should have searched under "Pathfinder", but since a link was already started with the purpose, I just asked my questions here since I think it is a universal rule (the stacking/source issue) for any version of D&D.

To answer your question Jimlock, I play Pathfinder and created my own "critical hit" charts in which, as an example, one character could be badly slashed on the thigh giving him a -4 dex as a RESULT; or an other example, his bicep could become badly bruised (crushed) giving him a -2 strength. I have played with this homemade list for so long (since vs 3.0), that I forgot that perhaps they don't take place in the official version of Pathfinder (or any other version of D&D).
 
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To answer your question Jimlock, I play Pathfinder and created my own "critical hit" charts in which, as an example, one character could be badly slashed on the thigh giving him a -4 dex as a RESULT; or an other example, his bicep could become badly bruised (crushed) giving him a -2 strength. I have played with this homemade list for so long (since vs 3.0), that I forgot that perhaps they don't take place in the official version of Pathfinder (or any other version of D&D).


... as long as you define what this -4 dex is (penalty or damage...) i assume that you won't have a problem with either of the two systems.
 

What exactly is a source?

From the glossary on general stacking rules: "the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession)." That is, Ray of Enfeeblement is one source regardless of who casts it or how many times it is cast.

This combined with the untyped penalty stacking rule means that the answer to the OP is that two Bestow Curse spells to Dex do not stack.
 

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