Planescape Do You Care About Planescape Lore?

[pemerton]

Personally I don't see the problem. And I don't want as much detail as possible. For me, a big part of RPGing is (together with my players) creating my own fiction, rather than immersing myself in fiction that someone else already created. Monster details that are suggestive of trope and theme are good; monster details that answer all the questions before play even starts, less so.

To me, that doesn't mesh with the things you've said about 4e's cosmology and its influence over game features. For me, the pervasiveness of 4e's lore was quite a hamstring.

This is a big part of why I think the lore/fluff for everything should be minimalist (at least in core). I totally disagree with the notion that "subtraction is easier than addition". Player's, even newbie's, generate fluff easily and naturally. OTOH, many players become attached to the official fluff, the seem very reticent to let go of it, even resenting "reskinned" monsters.

I agree with your disagreement about subtraction being easier than addition, and also that people are capable of making up their own stuff.

I also agree that 4e's cosmology is hard to prise off the game, given that nearly every story element - from the PHB races to the warlock powers to lots of paragon paths/epic destinies to big chunks of the monsters - are characterised, in part at least, in their relation to the cosmology. In that respect, at least, 4e resembles Gloranthan games more than it does classic D&D.

But I don't think that is at odds with my post that you quoted (and that I've requoted above). 4e's cosmology establishs tropes and themes - but doesn't answer the questions (eg the game leaves it open whether the players and their PCs will side with the "stern" gods like Erathis and Bane, the "ambivalent" gods like Corellon and Avandra, or the primordials, in the ensuing "Dusk War"). It doesn't have metaplot, or secret campaign elements that invalidate the surface lore, thereby turning the players into mere observers of the GM's telling of his/her setting story.

 

[Shemeska]

...said "slender exception" being violated in numerous published adventures. I can think of Black Spine and City by the Silt Sea for two.
-O

The exceptions were fun though, and honestly for the latter one you called out, it's going to be rather hard for pretty much anyone to pry that artifact away from Dregoth to go planeshopping.

And speaking to the thread at large now, I loved those connections between the campaign settings within Planescape, and the occasional shoutout within the others in Dark Sun, Forgotten Realms, etc. Outside of Dark Sun material itself, in Planescape one of the Factols of the Mercykillers was originally from Athas, though it was never established how he managed to get off-world. There was likewise a small ghetto of Athasians living in Sigil, and presumably at least temporary portal access (probably at least periodically both ways, since Nilesia claimed to have dumped Malin's corpse back onto Athas after killing him).

 

[Hussar]

/snip

1. So the "PS cosmology" sets a standard in other settings and you don't like that? What about the material annoys you? Why can't you change it yourself in a way that you would like or use a 3rd party source?

Yes. Nothing, since I completely ignore it. Why should I have to? Why should I have to strip out setting specific material from core material? I didn't buy the setting. I want nothing to do with the setting. So, why do I have to strip it out just so you can have your Planescape stuff in core?

Why can't you have your Planescape material packaged in a nice, pretty, Planescape supplement and leave core to those who don't want Planescape. After all, we don't have pirate Minotaurs in core. We don't have cannibal halflings in core. We don't have dinosaur riding elves in core. So, why do we have to have PS compatible outsiders in core?

2. So simply having material that was not similar to the way PS does it would make you feel better? What if that material was worse? How do you know you would like the different material better? Does being different simply make it better?

I think you and a lot of others are completely missing the point. It's not that I don't like the flavour of PS. (Well, I don't, but, that's not the issue) It's that any change to any planar material must be Planescape vetted before it can be added in. We cannot have different material since it would not be PS compatible. We cannot have god worshipping Yugoloths, because in PS, Yugoloths hate gods. That's not true in any other setting, but, in PS, Yugoloths hate gods, therefore, all Yugoloths in core must hate gods too.

3. Let's be honest here, does it really even matter? How much of this sort of material has a big impact on an actual session? I've been playing D&D for 15 years and outside of all of the hacking & slashing, roleplaying, and saving the world, I've never once seen players give a crap about the way the cosmology worked in the game. I've never seen a DM feel restricted & throw up his hands in defeat because he couldn't create session material due to the cosmology he was forced to use.

Yes, it does matter. Every single published adventure is going to use the core material. That means that every single published adventure that uses the planes must be Planescape compatible. Meaning I won't ever buy any planar adventures because I don't use Planescape and have no interest in it.

And, again, it's not the cosmology that's the issue. You'd think after 20 pages, that would be obvious. It's not the great Wheel or the World Axis or whatever. That doesn't matter. It's all the PS specific material that we're getting beaten over the head with whenever someone suggests any sort of change.

We cannot have abomination Slaad because Slaad MUST BE PS compatible. We cannot have eladrin on the Prime because Eladrin MUST BE PS compatible. We cannot change angels because if we have evil angels, then the Blood War doesn't make a whole lot of sense and that wouldn't be PS compatible. On and on and on.

I have no problems saying that a change is bad in and of itself. But, the only criteria seems to be, Is this PS compatible? If it isn't then it's automatically rejected. Not because the idea itself is good or bad, but simply because it doesn't fit in with an out of print setting from twenty years ago.

 

[Southern Oracle]

I love Planescape. I want everything to be a part of Planescape. Do YOU have to have everything a part of Planescape? No. Can you ignore Planescape-specific material? Yes. Does Planescape need to be a part of core? Only if other settings like Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance are going to be as well. Personally, I don't think things have ever been shoehorned to fit into Planescape, and I have a MUCH bigger bone to pick with how older material was ripped out of generic core and Greyhawk and stuck into Forgotten Realms because Forgotten Realms was the "new" thing. It took a long time before I would touch anything to do with the Forgotten Realms for that reason.

 

[Alzrius]

Interestingly enough, in the Dark Sun hardcover book Dragon Kings, it states that Athas is in an Alternate Material Plane (no crystal sphere), but shares the Astral and Outer Planes with the Prime (and in Air, Earth, Fire, and Water, it hints it might have different Inner Planes).

That was retconned in Defilers & Preservers; see the sidebars on pages 10 and 11.

And speaking to the thread at large now, I loved those connections between the campaign settings within Planescape

I second this, though it didn't have to be within Planescape. I loved the idea of all of D&D belonging to one big meta-setting, and I was always pleased when I saw references to a campaign world in another campaign world's product. I love crossovers, and I think it's great that we had a Forgotten Realms-Ravenloft two-part adventure, or that there's a Spelljammer supplement about Krynn's solar system, or how Orcus had an Athasian life-shaped creation in his fortress in the Negative Energy Plane.

Cameos and easter eggs are fun, and I hope we get those in D&D again someday.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

And, again, it's not the cosmology that's the issue. You'd think after 20 pages, that would be obvious. It's not the great Wheel or the World Axis or whatever. That doesn't matter. It's all the PS specific material that we're getting beaten over the head with whenever someone suggests any sort of change.

Wait, are you talking about other 5e threads? Because that would explain why, after 20 pages, this whole issue is still anything but clear to me.

(Sorry, I don't read many 5e threads!)

 

[Oryan77]

Why can't you have your Planescape material packaged in a nice, pretty, Planescape supplement

I would love that. I hated getting just a Manual of the Planes & Planar Handbook in 3rd edition.

What you seem to keep ignoring is the fact that a ton of what you refer to as being "PS compatible" or "PS specific material" did not originate from the Planescape setting. A ton of the cosmology and monster ecology existed before PS was even a setting. A lot of what you complain about seems to be more about, "Why is this core D&D fluff being pushed on me in my core D&D fluff?" You may as well replace the word "Planescape" with the words "AD&D Manual of the Planes" or "AD&D Monstrous Manual". And really? You can't easily figure out how to dismiss something like the Blood War in your core game? You think even if you did have to dismiss fluff from your core game that your players are going to be up in arms? Do they care about your content that you create on your own and add to the core game? Cause it's not core material.

I don't understand your passionate dislike for Planescape. I think I've seen you bring up how much you hate Planescape many times before in the past years. Not that I care that you hate it. It's not for everyone. I just think it is strange how it has such an impact on you. The great thing about D&D is how we can have so much control over it. I actually didn't care for the PS fluff they added to 3.5 Forgotten Realms. So, I just ignore it when I'm using Forgotten Realms. I didn't care for some of the changes 3.5e did to the core planar stuff that differed from my Planescape stuff. So I simply ignore the changes and work around them while I run my 3.5 PS game. I don't like how Dark Sun tries to block Athas from the cosmology, so I ignore it and include Dark Sun material in my PS game because I like to use DS content. It's easy to make changes and I won't believe otherwise; cause I have been making these changes myself since the beginning of 3rd edition.

It's that any change to any planar material must be Planescape vetted before it can be added in. We cannot have different material since it would not be PS compatible.

That's just simply not even true. As has been pointed out time and again, Planescape is based on material that already existed, and then it was simply expanded upon in the PS setting (with tweaks here & there). Then that material and the PS additions were used as 3e core to some extent. Then they borrowed from that material and created another version for 4e, and made that core. So on & so on.

You're pretty much just complaining that you don't like current core material. It being from Planescape has little to do with things. Who cares if planar material was used in future core fluff and it originated from a particular setting? D&D changes, and it will continue to change. I'm sure plenty of material from other settings turned into core fluff in the future editions.

Yes, it does matter. Every single published adventure is going to use the core material. That means that every single published adventure that uses the planes must be Planescape compatible. Meaning I won't ever buy any planar adventures because I don't use Planescape and have no interest in it.

So you've never bought a 3rd party adventure and integrated it into your existing campaign world? You can't figure out how to get a planar adventure to work in your own setting when some of the content is different from your version? Complaining that you have to make changes to core is pointless. We all make changes to our game on a constant basis regardless where the original material came from. I've run dozens of adventures from 3rd party sources, converted plenty from other editions, and used plenty based in worlds that don't even exist in the D&D cosmology. It's never been an issue and it's hardly time consuming to do.

We cannot have abomination Slaad because Slaad MUST BE PS compatible. We cannot have eladrin on the Prime because Eladrin MUST BE PS compatible. We cannot change angels because if we have evil angels, then the Blood War doesn't make a whole lot of sense and that wouldn't be PS compatible. On and on and on.

So then we can't have good Drow because core says they are an evil elven offshoot? Some far-off halfling town can't have Halflings that look like Hobbits cause core says Halflings look like human children and the art doesn't depict them with big hairy feet? I can't have a Hill Giant Wizard because core says they only have a 6 intelligence? That's really your argument to support your dislike of Planescape influencing core? Do you really stick to the core fluff like that? No wonder you feel screwed and are blaming PS for it.

Your beef is not with Planescape. Your beef is with the current fluff for the current edition you want to play. Whether the content was newly created for that core edition, or came from an existing setting seems moot. You're basically saying that if you never played D&D and joined a 5e game, heard about this war between 2 groups of angels called the "Heart's War", you would have no problem with that bit being in core since it didn't originate from Planescape? You'd also feel beholden to use this "Heart's War" in the 5e game that you DM and you wouldn't mind using it because it is 5e core and didn't come from Planescape? Yer gonna run in to the same issues over content that you don't like even if they created an entirely new cosmology & monster ecology. Some of this content coming from Planescape has nothing to do with it.

 

[Oryan77]

Wait, are you talking about other 5e threads? Because that would explain why, after 20 pages, this whole issue is still anything but clear to me.

(Sorry, I don't read many 5e threads!)

I'm in the same boat. Even so, if people are arguing over whether or not 5e is using PS content, who cares? It's been like 40 years since D&D has been around. You can't possibly only use the core that existed from the very beginning. It's going to morph as the game gets older and other settings or editions are bound to influence the latest core content. Where that content came from seems pointless to me (was it just now created or did it come from Planescape?)

 

[Siberys]

[MENTION=11697]Shemeska[/MENTION] - Which was borne of 2e's attempt at making all of their settings part of a larger multiverse. I know, canonically, Gith are from outside Athas' crystal sphere. But I dislike crossover games, and that implies the setting is part of a much larger multiverse. The 'degenerate non-native' trope is cool enough that I don't want to drop Gith, but in my DS games there aren't planes beyond the Gray.

A lot of people (in my area, at least) took Planescape (and, to a much lesser degree, Spelljammer) to be 'The Gazeteer of the D&D Multiverse' as opposed to its own setting, and /that/ rubs me the wrong way. It set up expectations in at least one of my players that I'd rather not be in the game. :/

 

[Hussar]

That was retconned in Defilers & Preservers; see the sidebars on pages 10 and 11.

Wait, I've been told repeatedly, again on this page as well, that Planescape did not change anything that came before. It only added to things. That all the flavour in Planescape existed in D&D long before Planescape came along. That Planescape simply clarified and added detail.

Hrm....

Funny thing is, I don't recall ever seeing anything about the Blood War until 2e. I don't recall ever seeing anything about Sigil until Planescape. I don't recall anything about Yuguloths being the source of all demons until Planescape.

But, apparently all that was already there and I just missed it.

Man, there must be a pile of 1e books that I never read. Funny that.

Look, all I'm saying is that setting specific lore belongs in that setting. Whatever that setting happens to be. Anything that is not setting specific, belongs in core. So, if they want to add in god worshipping Yugoloths, that would be fine, since it contradicts nothing in any edition's core. If they want evil angels, that should be fine too, since nothing in any edition's core actually contradicts that. If they want Slaad to be aberrations instead of outsiders, we should at least be able to entertain the thought without having the Planescape Police descending upon us, telling us that we must not have aberrant Slaad, because it would contradict Planescape lore.

I'm not saying I actually want aberration Slaad. What I want is to be able to have a discussion on the idea without someone telling me that we MUST NOT DO THIS, simply because of one setting.

But, apparently, that's not going to happen. Fair enough.