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Do you consider 4e D&D "newbie teeball"?

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I'd say 4E doesn't make it easier to be a DM, but it makes it easier to become a good DM. It provides tools to let one spend more of the time one does spend on the story and how one wants to tell it.

IOW, Being a good DM doesn't rely on system mastery. Heck, I play in a game now that the DM asks a lot of mechanical questions and the game is still a lot of fun.
 

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How else would you interpret BryonDs comment? It is indefensible as innocent, honest criticism.
Funny, thats not how I interpret it.

And that's before you consider that every post of his is an attack against 4e players with his signature or his own posting history.
Insert evil laughter here

If "all" you need is "D&D to run smoothly, palpate my gamer gland, and bring the metal" then that speaks for itself in my opinion. Is that an accurate description of you personally?

-4e is like t-ball, a game developed for 5 year olds who don't have the strength to pitch, or the coordination to hit a pitch- is not criticism, it is edition warring, an obvious and overt insult to 4e gamers.
When a 4E fan describes 4E as a game made to help the people who don't have the DMing equivalents of strength and coordination, then saying one is like the other is pretty reasonable.


Why it wasn't modded away in the first place, I don't get.
Maybe because what I said and what you are turning it in to are not the same thing.
 

Just a point of information that may add a touch of perspective.

If I had to vote, I think I'd name Piratecat as the best DM I've ever read material by or played with. I've never actually played in a game with him, but thats how I vote.

I understand that PC runs 4E. That has been my understanding for a while.

I stand by everything I've said.
And every bit of it is compatible with the best DM I know of running 4E.

If your reaction to my position is not compatible with that, then your reaction may be a little too much on the knee-jerk side and not enough on the looking at the context and considering the actual statement side.

just maybe
 

If "all" you need is "D&D to run smoothly, palpate my gamer gland, and bring the metal" then that speaks for itself in my opinion.

The quote pretty much tells you what that person wants from D&D the system, not what they want from their fellow gamers or at their gaming table. D&D, any edition, doesn't bring intelligent conversation, gamers do. Your response in your quote strikes me as a non-sequitur.
 
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billd91 said:
The t-ball comparision came up in another thread, generated an eruption in this thread, and pretty much been completely moved past in the original thread.

they probably didn't want to derail the thread and then this opened so they could come here and discuss it.
Yep. I decided to fork it and not derail the other conversation.
 

And what do you say when a player asks you how the shaman ogre they just fought had an AC of 23? "Uh, that seemed like an appropriate challenge..."

I have never had a player ask me about the math behind an AC. I think my instinctive reaction if it was a demand would be "Excuse me?"

That said I think I might answer "Its a shaman ogre." if I didn't just say "Yep, quite the mystery. Perhaps its something you'd want to investigate in game in case you meet any more."

Although "He had a guardian spirit ally from his pacting shaman template." has a nice feel to it.

Have your players in 3e really asked in the middle of a game how the monsters got their AC numbers?
 

Thanks for the explanations comparing 3e and 4e. I think I would have to just make a 4e NPC myself to really see the difference. Because it sounds exactly the same to me as far as the time spent customizing an NPC in both editions.
It's not. Of course, I come from the point of view of writing "official" adventures for Living Greyhawk and Living Forgotten Realms.

In 3e, you take a base creature, then you add say 10 class levels of Wizard. 10 levels of wizard gives you a bonus to 2 stats, 4 feats, +5 BAB, 10d4 plus con mod hitpoints, a lot of skill points, around 20 spells(and over 30 in the spellbook), and some class features. Also, it gives you a bunch of gold pieces to buy magic items with. The 4 feats need to be taken from every feat in the game. Which meant scouring 10 books for the best feats to go with the creature. You had to pick the spell list from multiple books as well. Then your magic items needed to be picked from multiple books.

Then you needed to add together armor bonuses, deflection bonuses, natural armor bonuses, and so on. Making sure to follow proper stacking rules. You need to modify the skills, attack, damage, AC, Saves based on the new stat points you spent(and any magic items).

Then, when you actually ran the enemy, you'd have to recalculate all those things again when you used individual spells that enhanced those abilities.

Lastly, you'd need to worry about the resulting creature's balance. You may have followed the rules to the letter, but a CR 20 creature with +5 to hit, isn't going to hit any of the players. A CR 5 creature with an AC of 30 is going to be nearly impossible to defeat. If you created a broken creature somehow, you needed to either run the creature as is and tell your players to suck it up or you needed to start the process again.

In 4e, if you want to raise a caster type monster by 5 levels, you add 5 to all attacks and defenses, 2 to damage, and a number of hitpoints based on its type. If you want to give it a magic item, you can...it generally doesn't add anything except a power.

If you want to make a caster type monster who is level 10, you simply look at the table in the DMG, write down the defenses, attack, damage, and hitpoints of a creature of that level. Then choose some interesting powers from other creatures.

Or, you can apply a class template to a monster and follow the instructions in the template to modify the creature by adding powers from the class. This is the most complicated method of modifying creatures but gives the most detailed result.

I think it's funny though. The options and customization is what people loved when 3e came out. Everyone talked about how great it was to play something specific and how they couldn't do that in older editions. Now people are saying the exact opposite and using that as a reason for going to 4e. I guess they found out that having more isn't always better :p
Customization creates balance issues. Being able to create a weakling who can't fight at all in a 20th level group is fine and dandy. Being able to creature a character capable of taking on the whole planet at the same time is fine and dandy. Put them both in the same group and it is impossible to challenge one character without completely destroying or trivializing the other one.

There was enough customization in 3e that you could create a creature with 700 hitpoints and +40 to hit who was a CR 20. But you could also create a creature with 50 hipoints with +5 to hit who was CR 20.

You could create a character who had +40 to hit at 20th level. You could also create a character with +5 to hit at 20th level. One could have 500 hitpoints while another has 40.

Given that amount of customization, it was impossible to accurately predict the power level of a character. So, when you are writing adventures that are to be sold or distributed to thousands of people like our Living Greyhawk ones were, you had to just guess randomly and hope for the best. Most authors planned for the worst and made the most powerful monsters they could make just in case. Then, if anyone complained, they could just say, "Hey, I followed the rules, It's a CR 8 creature, your 8th level party should be able to beat it easily."

For me, I found that this, combined with the fact that it took me a good 2 or 3 hours to make that creature optimized enough to survive against powergamers, only to have it survive 2 rounds of combat made it not worth it to follow the rules. I don't like breaking the rules. I figure the rules are there for a reason. So I follow them. I just gave up DMing in 3.5e.
 

Have your players in 3e really asked in the middle of a game how the monsters got their AC numbers?

Yes. Sometimes 3 or 4 times a round. As soon as one of the extremely powergamed characters says "I hit AC 35" and I say "Miss", they immediately say "WHAT? I hit 35. There's no way that missed. How did it get that?"

And then I have to say "Well, it is a creature who started with a +12 natural armor. Then it got a template that adds a +2 deflection bonus. It is wearing +3 Fullplate designed for its size. Then it gets +1 from Dex."

Then they say "Wow...I can't believe you cheesed up the monster by adding a template and giving it custom +3 armor. Most of the monsters we fighter have around AC 25. It's a full 11 points higher than usual."

Because, if I'm off by one point, they'll notice. They'll call me on it. After all, the only way the game is fun for them and for me is if we play "fair". If the rules let you make something, it's fair. If it's just made up, then they might as well not play. After all, it's easy to beat them if you can arbitrarily make a monster AC 36. It's hard if they have to follow a set of rules to get to AC 36. At least, that's how they look at it. Or how they did look at it in 3.5e.

Now, in 4e, I simply say "It's a level 10 monster, it has appropriate defenses for it's level. There's no rules for what AC it can have. This one is higher than normal."
 

Maybe because what I said and what you are turning it in to are not the same thing.

Then I have a simple request: Say it again, as clearly as possible, and shed some light on all of this. Instead of just saying "thats not what I said" 137 times when everybody else disagrees with you.
 

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